Virgin Media new build

[Tweed]

There’s a new build estate near me. Each house is fed by both Open Reach
FTTP and Virgin Media. The VM feed consists of two white cables about 8 to
10 mm in diameter. Any idea why two cables? It’s not the old shotgun coax
and twisted pair stuff and I gather new VM infrastructure is fibre to the
property.

[Woody]

Post by Tweed
There’s a new build estate near me. Each house is fed by both Open Reach
FTTP and Virgin Media. The VM feed consists of two white cables about 8 to
10 mm in diameter. Any idea why two cables? It’s not the old shotgun coax
and twisted pair stuff and I gather new VM infrastructure is fibre to the
property.

It would seem logical that it is the co-ax or fibre equivalent of the
shotgun pair, one for phone and one for broadband.

Otherwise it could be one for coax and one for fibre so that don't have
to dig the place up to fit them at changeover later.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Tweed
There’s a new build estate near me. Each house is fed by both Open Reach
FTTP and Virgin Media. The VM feed consists of two white cables about 8 to
10 mm in diameter. Any idea why two cables? It’s not the old shotgun coax
and twisted pair stuff and I gather new VM infrastructure is fibre to the
property.

It would seem logical that it is the co-ax or fibre equivalent of the shotgun
pair, one for phone and one for broadband.

Villages in my area never had virgin's "old" coax network, but got their "new"
RFoG network a few years ago. I believe all cabinets within the village contain
only unpowered, passive kit (fibre splitters and patch fields) there isn't any
copper until it reaches the box ouside a house

It would seem odd if there latest builds were a step backwards from that?

[Mark Carver]

Post by Tweed
There’s a new build estate near me. Each house is fed by both Open Reach
FTTP and Virgin Media. The VM feed consists of two white cables about 8 to
10 mm in diameter. Any idea why two cables? It’s not the old shotgun coax
and twisted pair stuff and I gather new VM infrastructure is fibre to the
property.

Are you sure they are cables, and not 'pipes' for fibre to be blown down
later ?

[Tweed]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed
There’s a new build estate near me. Each house is fed by both Open Reach
FTTP and Virgin Media. The VM feed consists of two white cables about 8 to
10 mm in diameter. Any idea why two cables? It’s not the old shotgun coax
and twisted pair stuff and I gather new VM infrastructure is fibre to the
property.

Are you sure they are cables, and not 'pipes' for fibre to be blown down
later ?

Not sure - you might be right. The Open Reach installation is a nice neat
job. The VM one consists of a plastic pipe around an inch and a bit in
diameter emerging from the ground, stopping a couple of inches above the
soil. Within that are these two white cables (or pipes?) that pass into the
property. I shall inspect more closely on my next walk.

In other news City Fibre are digging on my estate. A mixture of 2 inch
(ish) purple pipes and much thinner hose pipe style ducts. (Also purple).
They seem to be exploiting existing BT/OR ducting (the estate is entirely
ducted, no overhead) as a lot of their trenches seem to visit BT/OR
pavement chambers. I’ve no idea what the economics are in regard of putting
in their own ducts and using BT/OR for the last few metres to the property.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Tweed
In other news City Fibre are digging on my estate. A mixture of 2 inch
(ish) purple pipes and much thinner hose pipe style ducts. (Also purple).
They seem to be exploiting existing BT/OR ducting (the estate is entirely
ducted, no overhead) as a lot of their trenches seem to visit BT/OR
pavement chambers. I’ve no idea what the economics are in regard of putting
in their own ducts and using BT/OR for the last few metres to the property.

My street has "retrofitted" virgin fibre, they cut a slot a few inches wide with
a large circular saw (disconnecting a few BT customers in the process) they
bundled a couple of dozen 1/4" green tubes into each slot, terminating in a toby
per house in the path. they identified which toby terminated at which patch
point using compressed air, the fibres towards the headend were terminated into
the cabinets, but individual fibres towards the houses are only blown in on
demand ... from what I see, their minimal install then consists of a hole drill
in the base of the wall, a slot made by waggling a spade across the lawn and
about a 10" square box on the outside wall ... no idea what happens indoors.

[Theo]

Post by Andy Burns
My street has "retrofitted" virgin fibre, they cut a slot a few inches
wide with a large circular saw (disconnecting a few BT customers in the
process) they bundled a couple of dozen 1/4" green tubes into each slot,
terminating in a toby per house in the path. they identified which toby
terminated at which patch point using compressed air, the fibres towards
the headend were terminated into the cabinets, but individual fibres
towards the houses are only blown in on demand ... from what I see, their
minimal install then consists of a hole drill in the base of the wall, a
slot made by waggling a spade across the lawn and about a 10" square box
on the outside wall ... no idea what happens indoors.

How deep do they bury them? I've heard things like the standard is supposed
to be 600mm for trenches, which might be doable with a microtrencher but
doubt with a spade.

Although I've also heard of installs where they tuck it under the turf like
under a rug...

Theo

[Mark Carver]

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns
My street has "retrofitted" virgin fibre, they cut a slot a few inches
wide with a large circular saw (disconnecting a few BT customers in the
process) they bundled a couple of dozen 1/4" green tubes into each slot,
terminating in a toby per house in the path. they identified which toby
terminated at which patch point using compressed air, the fibres towards
the headend were terminated into the cabinets, but individual fibres
towards the houses are only blown in on demand ... from what I see, their
minimal install then consists of a hole drill in the base of the wall, a
slot made by waggling a spade across the lawn and about a 10" square box
on the outside wall ... no idea what happens indoors.

How deep do they bury them? I've heard things like the standard is supposed
to be 600mm for trenches, which might be doable with a microtrencher but
doubt with a spade.
Although I've also heard of installs where they tuck it under the turf like
under a rug...

They have unbelievably low standards, and use unbelievably low quality
products.

[Tim+]

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns
My street has "retrofitted" virgin fibre, they cut a slot a few inches
wide with a large circular saw (disconnecting a few BT customers in the
process) they bundled a couple of dozen 1/4" green tubes into each slot,
terminating in a toby per house in the path. they identified which toby
terminated at which patch point using compressed air, the fibres towards
the headend were terminated into the cabinets, but individual fibres
towards the houses are only blown in on demand ... from what I see, their
minimal install then consists of a hole drill in the base of the wall, a
slot made by waggling a spade across the lawn and about a 10" square box
on the outside wall ... no idea what happens indoors.

How deep do they bury them?

As shallowly as they can get away with. I can see my neighbour’s Virgin
cable exposed through the gravel in his driveway. It was never more than a
couple of inches below the surface.

Tim

[[e-mail]]

Post by Andy Burns
My street has "retrofitted" virgin fibre, they cut a slot a few inches
wide with a large circular saw (disconnecting a few BT customers in the
process) they bundled a couple of dozen 1/4" green tubes into each slot,
terminating in a toby per house in the path. they identified which toby
terminated at which patch point using compressed air, the fibres towards
the headend were terminated into the cabinets, but individual fibres
towards the houses are only blown in on demand ... from what I see, their
minimal install then consists of a hole drill in the base of the wall, a
slot made by waggling a spade across the lawn and about a 10" square box
on the outside wall ... no idea what happens indoors.

How deep do they bury them? I've heard things like the standard is supposed
to be 600mm for trenches, which might be doable with a microtrencher but
doubt with a spade.
Although I've also heard of installs where they tuck it under the turf like
under a rug...
Theo

Only about 150mm for VM, see link in earlier reply.

[Theo]

Post by ***@gmail.com
Only about 150mm for VM, see link in earlier reply.

That seems to suggest 250mm under the footway (260mm in Scotland). I can't
seem to find a ref for 150mm?

Openreach:
https://www.powerandcables.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Cable-Laying-A-Cable-Duct-Laying-Guide-From-BT-Openreach.pdf
seem to suggest 350mm

Theo

[[e-mail]]

Post by ***@gmail.com
Only about 150mm for VM, see link in earlier reply.

That seems to suggest 250mm under the footway (260mm in Scotland). I can't
seem to find a ref for 150mm?
https://www.powerandcables.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Cable-Laying-A-Cable-Duct-Laying-Guide-From-BT-Openreach.pdf
seem to suggest 350mm
Theo

In answer to this and another post about Telewest, VM predecessors (Nynex here) used to shallow bury, on the grounds that the cable was low voltage and also strong flexible enough to survive minor disturbance.

The Nynex install in our area was dire, to the extent our neighbours would not let them dig up to pass. On site they proposed trenching the car park, a cabinet in the middle of the back garden and wires up the walls. We countered with cables across grass into our common meter rooms, their equimpment in the rooms (on our power) with cable in existing LV conduits to the individual flats. Verbally they agreed, but then sent the same plans again. We told them to swing their hook.

[Philip Hole]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by ***@gmail.com
Only about 150mm for VM, see link in earlier reply.

That seems to suggest 250mm under the footway (260mm in Scotland). I can't
seem to find a ref for 150mm?
https://www.powerandcables.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Cable-Laying-A-Cable-Duct-Laying-Guide-From-BT-Openreach.pdf
seem to suggest 350mm
Theo

In answer to this and another post about Telewest, VM predecessors (Nynex here) used to shallow bury, on the grounds that the cable was low voltage and also strong flexible enough to survive minor disturbance.
The Nynex install in our area was dire, to the extent our neighbours would not let them dig up to pass. On site they proposed trenching the car park, a cabinet in the middle of the back garden and wires up the walls. We countered with cables across grass into our common meter rooms, their equimpment in the rooms (on our power) with cable in existing LV conduits to the individual flats. Verbally they agreed, but then sent the same plans again. We told them to swing their hook.

A huge new build estate nearby was saturated by Telecential in the 1990s.

Most houses were built on a circular plan with an exit road to a major
feeder road. [lollipop design].

What many owners did not appreciate was that their properties ended at
their front house wall and their flower beds/hedges were still owned by
the council.

Thus the council could reap huge benefits from the ISP which won the
auction.

So the diggers came in and went through everybodies front
lawn/flowerbed/drive.

And now VM are reeling in the money

[[e-mail]]

Post by Philip Hole

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by ***@gmail.com
Only about 150mm for VM, see link in earlier reply.

That seems to suggest 250mm under the footway (260mm in Scotland). I can't
seem to find a ref for 150mm?
https://www.powerandcables.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Cable-Laying-A-Cable-Duct-Laying-Guide-From-BT-Openreach.pdf
seem to suggest 350mm
Theo

In answer to this and another post about Telewest, VM predecessors (Nynex here) used to shallow bury, on the grounds that the cable was low voltage and also strong flexible enough to survive minor disturbance.
The Nynex install in our area was dire, to the extent our neighbours would not let them dig up to pass. On site they proposed trenching the car park, a cabinet in the middle of the back garden and wires up the walls. We countered with cables across grass into our common meter rooms, their equimpment in the rooms (on our power) with cable in existing LV conduits to the individual flats. Verbally they agreed, but then sent the same plans again. We told them to swing their hook.

A huge new build estate nearby was saturated by Telecential in the 1990s.
Most houses were built on a circular plan with an exit road to a major
feeder road. [lollipop design].
What many owners did not appreciate was that their properties ended at
their front house wall and their flower beds/hedges were still owned by
the council.

Even if they had title to the road, they are usually adopted afterwards and like an adopted child the council has both the rights and responsibility for the road and pavement,.

If a road is adopted then a statutory undertaker - like Virgin - has the right to dig it up. The council can sometimes get money for this, but usually not.

Back in the 90's Norweb installed fibre into my office (to give [no installation charge] us ISDN). Between them and BG they left an open excavation in the pavement of Manchester Piccadilly for six to eight weeks! They also dug all the way around the block to get the fibre to the rear of the building.

Post by Philip Hole
Thus the council could reap huge benefits from the ISP which won the
auction.

How so?

Post by Philip Hole
So the diggers came in and went through everybodies front
lawn/flowerbed/drive.
And now VM are reeling in the money
--
Flop

[Martin Brown]

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns
My street has "retrofitted" virgin fibre, they cut a slot a few inches
wide with a large circular saw (disconnecting a few BT customers in the
process) they bundled a couple of dozen 1/4" green tubes into each slot,
terminating in a toby per house in the path. they identified which toby
terminated at which patch point using compressed air, the fibres towards
the headend were terminated into the cabinets, but individual fibres
towards the houses are only blown in on demand ... from what I see, their
minimal install then consists of a hole drill in the base of the wall, a
slot made by waggling a spade across the lawn and about a 10" square box
on the outside wall ... no idea what happens indoors.

How deep do they bury them? I've heard things like the standard is supposed
to be 600mm for trenches, which might be doable with a microtrencher but
doubt with a spade.

BT was about 2-3' deep and in proper trunking.

Post by Theo
Although I've also heard of installs where they tuck it under the turf like
under a rug...

My brother in laws bare coax buried is about 2" deep in a flower bed.
Virgin cowboys!

ISTR it was some predecessor they took over that did the "installing".
Telewest??

[Andy Burns]

Post by Martin Brown

How deep do they bury them?  I've heard things like the standard is supposed
to be 600mm for trenches, which might be doable with a microtrencher but
doubt with a spade.

BT was about 2-3' deep and in proper trunking.

Not (all) here, see the bit where I mentioned virgin's circular saw cutting some
of it ...

Post by Martin Brown

Although I've also heard of installs where they tuck it under the turf like
under a rug...

My brother in laws bare coax buried is about 2" deep in a flower bed. Virgin
cowboys!

That's about what I saw of next door's install, after digging a small hole under
their brick wall and drilling to the toby, the fibre was laid in a slit made by
a spade, a few years later I heard the wife tending the flower bed asking
"what's this?" as she found it ...

Post by Martin Brown
ISTR it was some predecessor they took over that did the "installing".
Telewest??

[Andy Burns]

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns
My street has "retrofitted" virgin fibre, they cut a slot a few inches

wide with a large circular saw (disconnecting a few BT customers in the
process) they bundled a couple of dozen 1/4" green tubes into each slot,

How deep do they bury them? I've heard things like the standard is supposed
to be 600mm for trenches

About 300mm, which they may regret ... Cadent have been replacing gas
mains in the street, and dug a hole outside each house without a care in
the world about the virgin fibres, they've obliterated a 3 foot section
of the outer duct in each hole, and in some holes have also snapped some
of the inner microducts (I guess none of them were ones with actual
fibre blown in, as I've not seen any emergency visits from Virgin to
re-connect anyone).

[Theo]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns
My street has "retrofitted" virgin fibre, they cut a slot a few inches

wide with a large circular saw (disconnecting a few BT customers in the
process) they bundled a couple of dozen 1/4" green tubes into each slot,

How deep do they bury them? I've heard things like the standard is supposed
to be 600mm for trenches

About 300mm, which they may regret ... Cadent have been replacing gas
mains in the street, and dug a hole outside each house without a care in
the world about the virgin fibres, they've obliterated a 3 foot section
of the outer duct in each hole, and in some holes have also snapped some
of the inner microducts (I guess none of them were ones with actual
fibre blown in, as I've not seen any emergency visits from Virgin to
re-connect anyone).

300mm is the standard depth in the footway:
https://www.powerandcables.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Cable-Laying-A-Cable-Duct-Laying-Guide-From-BT-Openreach.pdf
with 600mm under roads.

The idea is the network is separated vertically from the gas/water/elec
which are at a deeper depth. That avoids the need for an 'air traffic
control' to ensure horizontal separation.

Sounds like Cadent (or their contractor) didn't get the memo. I wonder if
the Virgin ducts have any metal in their outer so that they show up on CAT
scans?

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns
Cadent have been replacing gas
mains in the street, and dug a hole outside each house without a care in
the world about the virgin fibres, they've obliterated a 3 foot section
of the outer duct in each hole, and in some holes have also snapped some
of the inner microducts

https://www.powerandcables.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Cable-Laying-A-Cable-Duct-Laying-Guide-From-BT-Openreach.pdf
with 600mm under roads.
The idea is the network is separated vertically from the gas/water/elec
which are at a deeper depth. That avoids the need for an 'air traffic
control' to ensure horizontal separation.

The first thing cadent (or possibly outsourced to one of the "before you
dig" services?) did was mark-up the location of all services on the
pavement, seemed accurate (from what I knew and what can now be seen)
but the location of virgin's trenches were perfectly visible from the
reinstated tarmac anyway.

Post by Theo
Sounds like Cadent (or their contractor) didn't get the memo. I wonder if
the Virgin ducts have any metal in their outer so that they show up on CAT
scans?

I did hear one of the grunts complaining along the lines of "they expect
us to know it's there based on this little bit of wire", if mine was the
first house it might be understandable, but this is happening in-turn
outside every house in the street, when it's bloody obvious where the
virgin ducts are.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns
My street has "retrofitted" virgin fibre, they cut a slot a few inches

wide with a large circular saw (disconnecting a few BT customers in the
process) they bundled a couple of dozen 1/4" green tubes into each slot,

How deep do they bury them? I've heard things like the standard is supposed
to be 600mm for trenches

About 300mm, which they may regret ... Cadent have been replacing gas
mains in the street, and dug a hole outside each house without a care in
the world about the virgin fibres, they've obliterated a 3 foot section
of the outer duct in each hole, and in some holes have also snapped some
of the inner microducts (I guess none of them were ones with actual
fibre blown in, as I've not seen any emergency visits from Virgin to
re-connect anyone).

https://www.powerandcables.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Cable-Laying-A-Cable-Duct-Laying-Guide-From-BT-Openreach.pdf
with 600mm under roads.

About 50-75mm in my road. The directly buried Virgin microduct was
exposed when a pot hole opened up. I took a photo, it's somewhere on my
phone.

Useless muppets,

[Andy Burns]

the fibres towards the headend were terminated into the cabinets, but individual
fibres towards the houses are only blown in on demand ...

We're getting new neighbours a couple of houses down, must be moving-in day
soon, a virgin contractor was there this afternoon. The installation method
seems to be quite a low even for virgin ... sweep some gravel aside with their
hands, lay the fibre, drill through the wall into the lounge, kick the gravel
back into place.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed
There’s a new build estate near me. Each house is fed by both Open Reach
FTTP and Virgin Media. The VM feed consists of two white cables about 8 to
10 mm in diameter. Any idea why two cables? It’s not the old shotgun coax
and twisted pair stuff and I gather new VM infrastructure is fibre to the
property.

Are you sure they are cables, and not 'pipes' for fibre to be blown down
later ?

VM and predecessor subscriber ducts were ~32mm and green.

I forget the name of the installer, but currently someone is installing small (19mmIME) fuchsia coloured ducts within BT's much larger ones extensively in south Manchester, albeit still with some digging where there are kinks, damage or around junction boxes. AIUI the intention is to blow fibre down the new ducts later. Not sure you will be able to blow much down a 10mm pipe.

I suspect two cables for redundancy, if one fails you don't have to dig up, if both it is probably another statutory undertaker's fault.

Anyway here is their 2019 and apparently latest guide: -
https://www.virginmedia.com/content/dam/virginmedia/dotcom/images/shop/downloads/New-Build-Handbook-v1-63.pdf