Another VoIP porting question

[Graham J]

My friend Ivan has:

- Landline with associated phone number from BT;

- ADSL broadband from Zen.

He needs to prepare for the discontinuation of POTS at the end of 2025.

He wants to retain his existing router (for reasons I could explain in a
separate post). He intends to port his landline number to Voipfone.

So far he has:

1) Set up an account with Voipfone and bought an ATA. These have been
tested and work with the free phone 056 number that Voipfone issued.

2) Asked Zen to convert his broadband service to SoGEA. This is so the
broadband service is separated from the landline number, so that number
can be ported to Voipfone in future. The conversion is planned to take
place on 29 April.

The conversion to SoGEA includes converting the service to VSDL (i.e.
FTTC). This should improve the broadband reliability as well as speed.
There's no hope of FTTP from Zen - probably ever - since County
Broadband and CityFibre both have fibre available at Ivan's location.

The order acknowledgement from Zen warns that the landline number will
stop working with the conversion to SoGEA. I'm surprised that Zen is
able to force BT to cancel the landline number simply because of the
conversion to SoGEA.

Can anybody explain?

I am aware that the reverse does happen: if you were to port a landline
number away from BT it would cancel any broadband service associated
with that landline irrespective of the fact that the broadband might be
from another supplier.

Can anybody report their own experience?

[Woody]

Post by Graham J
- Landline with associated phone number from BT;
- ADSL broadband from Zen.
He needs to prepare for the discontinuation of POTS at the end of 2025.
He wants to retain his existing router (for reasons I could explain in a
separate post).  He intends to port his landline number to Voipfone.
1) Set up an account with Voipfone and bought an ATA.  These have been
tested and work with the free phone 056 number that Voipfone issued.
2) Asked Zen to convert his broadband service to SoGEA.  This is so the
broadband service is separated from the landline number, so that number
can be ported to Voipfone in future.  The conversion is planned to take
place on 29 April.
The conversion to SoGEA includes converting the service to VSDL (i.e.
FTTC).  This should improve the broadband reliability as well as speed.
There's no hope of FTTP from Zen - probably ever - since County
Broadband and CityFibre both have fibre available at Ivan's location.
The order acknowledgement from Zen warns that the landline number will
stop working with the conversion to SoGEA.  I'm surprised that Zen is
able to force BT to cancel the landline number simply because of the
conversion to SoGEA.
Can anybody explain?
I am aware that the reverse does happen: if you were to port a landline
number away from BT it would cancel any broadband service associated
with that landline irrespective of the fact that the broadband might be
from another supplier.
Can anybody report their own experience?

Don't see the issue with Zen as CityFibre are a carrier for Zen - at
least they are around here.

[Graham J]

Woody wrote:

[snip]

Post by Woody
Don't see the issue with Zen as CityFibre are a carrier for Zen - at
least they are around here.

OP here.

I was wrong, the other supplier is Gigaclear - and Zen tell me that
"there are no plans for Zen to sell connections via Gigaclear"

[Andy Burns]

I'm surprised that Zen is able to force BT to cancel the landline number
simply because of the conversion to SoGEA.

They couldn't do anything *other* than that, a SOGEA line (unlike a FTTC
line) cannot have a PSTN number.

[Graham J]

Post by Andy Burns

I'm surprised that Zen is able to force BT to cancel the landline
number simply because of the conversion to SoGEA.

They couldn't do anything *other* than that, a SOGEA line (unlike a FTTC
line) cannot have a PSTN number.

This isn't logical.

The reason for the existence of SoGEA is - as I understand it - to
provide a method of identifying the broadband service without needing a
phone number. The copper pair to the exchange (or perhaps to the green
cabinet) still exists. The rental for SoGEA pays for (a proportion of)
the cost of the copper pair. A phone service could still exist on that
line and its rental would then have to pay (a proportion of the cost of
the copper pair) and for the exchange equipment to support voice calls.

So it is purely an administrative issue, and provides a one off income
for Openreach.

The reverse is - logically - also true. There is no engineering reason
why a SoGEA line cannot have a PSTN service. It must be purely an
administrative issue.

[Theo]

Post by Graham J

Post by Andy Burns

I'm surprised that Zen is able to force BT to cancel the landline
number simply because of the conversion to SoGEA.

They couldn't do anything *other* than that, a SOGEA line (unlike a FTTC
line) cannot have a PSTN number.

This isn't logical.
The reason for the existence of SoGEA is - as I understand it - to
provide a method of identifying the broadband service without needing a
phone number. The copper pair to the exchange (or perhaps to the green
cabinet) still exists. The rental for SoGEA pays for (a proportion of)
the cost of the copper pair. A phone service could still exist on that
line and its rental would then have to pay (a proportion of the cost of
the copper pair) and for the exchange equipment to support voice calls.
So it is purely an administrative issue, and provides a one off income
for Openreach.

No, SOGEA is technically a different thing. In a traditional ADSL or FTTC
setup the lower frequencies are available for voice - I think it's up to
38kHz. That's why you need microfilters, to filter out the DSL in the kHz
and MHz from interfering from your voice signal.

In SOGEA the whole frequency band is available for DSL - that means the
DSLAM could decide to use the voice frequencies in order to get some more
bandwidth. That's why it can't coexist with a voice service.

Whether the DSLAMs actually do use the voice frequencies I don't know - I'd
guess the benefits of doing so are fairly limited.

Anyway, the main motivation of SOGEA is that Openreach wants to remove the
copper pair from the cabinet to the exchange, so they can then remove the
exchange. They move you onto SOGEA and VOIP so you no longer need the pair,
then behind the scenes dig up the pairs, remove their gear from the
exchange, move out and stop leasing it.

They don't want to put you on a product which still uses that copper pair
because a single one of those would block the whole exchange removal
programme.

Theo

[Graham J]

Theo wrote:

[snip]

Post by Theo

Post by Graham J
So it is purely an administrative issue, and provides a one off income
for Openreach.

No, SOGEA is technically a different thing.

Perhaps.

Post by Theo
In a traditional ADSL or FTTC
setup the lower frequencies are available for voice - I think it's up to
38kHz. That's why you need microfilters, to filter out the DSL in the kHz
and MHz from interfering from your voice signal.

True, but probably only up to about 5kHz. Voice is digital throughout
the system except for the copper pair from you to the exchange.

Post by Theo
In SOGEA the whole frequency band is available for DSL - that means the
DSLAM could decide to use the voice frequencies in order to get some more
bandwidth. That's why it can't coexist with a voice service.

That may be true. Can you point to a trustworthy link that confirms it?

Post by Theo
Whether the DSLAMs actually do use the voice frequencies I don't know - I'd
guess the benefits of doing so are fairly limited.

Agreed.

Post by Theo
Anyway, the main motivation of SOGEA is that Openreach wants to remove the
copper pair from the cabinet to the exchange, so they can then remove the
exchange. They move you onto SOGEA and VOIP so you no longer need the pair,
then behind the scenes dig up the pairs, remove their gear from the
exchange, move out and stop leasing it.
They don't want to put you on a product which still uses that copper pair
because a single one of those would block the whole exchange removal
programme.

That's a reasonable explanation. So it would be even more profitable
for them to convert everybody to FTTP. But as far as I can tell, there
will be a small proportion of users who will never get FTTP, nor any
sort of digital connection because they live too far away from any
relevant fibre concentrator. So I can see copper pairs and exchanges
existing for at least 20 years yet ...

[Andy Burns]

Post by Graham J

Post by Theo
Whether the DSLAMs actually do use the voice frequencies I don't
know - I'd guess the benefits of doing so are fairly limited.

Agreed.

My router can display a graph of bits per bin, not easy to tell the
lowest actual bin number from the graph, I think the lowest 6 or 7 bins
of 3.4kHz each are a guard band for POTS, so probably BT wouldn't want
to use them until all POTS lines in a cab are dead?

My router claims it already has enough bandwidth available to run at
85.7/25.6, but it's capped to 79.9/19.9, so adding a handful more bins
probably wouldn't change anything anyway?

Post by Graham J

Post by Theo
Anyway, the main motivation of SOGEA is that Openreach wants to
remove the copper pair from the cabinet to the exchange, so they
can then remove the exchange. They move you onto SOGEA and VOIP so
you no longer need the pair, then behind the scenes dig up the
pairs, remove their gear from the exchange, move out and stop
leasing it.
They don't want to put you on a product which still uses that copper pair
because a single one of those would block the whole exchange removal
programme.

That's a reasonable explanation.  So it would be even more profitable
for them to convert everybody to FTTP.

Not sure ... they already have the VDSL cabinets, so until those start
failing, the most profitable thing is just to stop providing POTS
through them

Post by Graham J
But as far as I can tell, there will be a small proportion of users
who will never get FTTP, nor any sort of digital connection because
they live too far away from any relevant fibre concentrator. So I
can see copper pairs and exchanges existing for at least 20 years yet
...

Some, yes; but as far as possible they will try to retain the copper
only for the last few hundred yards, not the miles back to the e

[David Wade]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Graham J

Post by Theo
Whether the DSLAMs actually do use the voice frequencies I don't
know - I'd guess the benefits of doing so are fairly limited.

Agreed.

My router can display a graph of bits per bin, not easy to tell the
lowest actual bin number from the graph, I think the lowest 6 or 7 bins
of 3.4kHz each are a guard band for POTS, so probably BT wouldn't want
to use them until all POTS lines in a cab are dead?
My router claims it already has enough bandwidth available to run at
85.7/25.6, but it's capped to 79.9/19.9, so adding a handful more bins
probably wouldn't change anything anyway?

Post by Graham J

Post by Theo
Anyway, the main motivation of SOGEA is that Openreach wants to
remove the copper pair from the cabinet to the exchange, so they
can then remove the exchange.  They move you onto SOGEA and VOIP so
you no longer need the pair, then behind the scenes dig up the
pairs, remove their gear from the exchange, move out and stop
leasing it.
They don't want to put you on a product which still uses that copper pair
because a single one of those would block the whole exchange removal
programme.

That's a reasonable explanation.  So it would be even more profitable
for them to convert everybody to FTTP.

Not sure ... they already have the VDSL cabinets, so until those start
failing, the most profitable thing is just to stop providing POTS
through them

Post by Graham J
But as far as I can tell, there will be a small proportion of users
who will never get FTTP, nor any sort of digital connection because
they live too far away from any relevant fibre concentrator.  So I
can see copper pairs and exchanges existing for at least 20 years yet
...

Standard range for FTTP is 58km, so around 36 Miles. OpenReach says it
can deliver FTTP up to 98km from the exchange. Not sure what percentage
of the population that covers, but no one is to far providing Openreach
can lay a fibre.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/09/a-look-at-openreachs-compact-fttp-broadband-ont-and-mini-olt.html


I expect some remote users where its expensive to lay fibre will be hung
out to dry..

Post by Andy Burns
Some, yes;  but as far as possible they will try to retain the copper
only for the last few hundred yards, not the miles back to the exchange.

Dave

[MikeS]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Theo

Post by Graham J
So it is purely an administrative issue, and provides a one off income
for Openreach.

No, SOGEA is technically a different thing.

Perhaps.

Post by Theo
In a traditional ADSL or FTTC
setup the lower frequencies are available for voice - I think it's up to
38kHz.  That's why you need microfilters, to filter out the DSL in the
kHz
and MHz from interfering from your voice signal.

True, but probably only up to about 5kHz.  Voice is digital throughout
the system except for the copper pair from you to the exchange.

Post by Theo
In SOGEA the whole frequency band is available for DSL - that means the
DSLAM could decide to use the voice frequencies in order to get some more
bandwidth.  That's why it can't coexist with a voice service.

That may be true.  Can you point to a trustworthy link that confirms it?

Post by Theo
Whether the DSLAMs actually do use the voice frequencies I don't know - I'd
guess the benefits of doing so are fairly limited.

Agreed.

Post by Theo
Anyway, the main motivation of SOGEA is that Openreach wants to remove the
copper pair from the cabinet to the exchange, so they can then remove the
exchange.  They move you onto SOGEA and VOIP so you no longer need the
pair,
then behind the scenes dig up the pairs, remove their gear from the
exchange, move out and stop leasing it.
They don't want to put you on a product which still uses that copper pair
because a single one of those would block the whole exchange removal
programme.

That's a reasonable explanation.  So it would be even more profitable
for them to convert everybody to FTTP.  But as far as I can tell, there
will be a small proportion of users who will never get FTTP, nor any
sort of digital connection because they live too far away from any
relevant fibre concentrator.  So I can see copper pairs and exchanges
existing for at least 20 years yet ...

Usenet and forums seem to be full of misleading claims about the end of
the analogue phone service.

My understanding is Openreach will retain their street cabinets in areas
where they have no FTTP service. BT customers will still use a copper
pair to the cabinet for digital services, just as they do now. The
difference will be that their voice phone service becomes VoIP instead
of analogue, even for the tiny number who don't want broadband. There
also seems to be a possible plan to provide a few vulnerable customers
with an analogue service generated at the cabinet but that is even more
confused.

[Andy Burns]

Post by MikeS
Usenet and forums seem to be full of misleading claims about the end of
the analogue phone service.
My understanding is Openreach will retain their street cabinets in areas
where they have no FTTP service. BT customers will still use a copper
pair to the cabinet for digital services, just as they do now. The
difference will be that their voice phone service becomes VoIP instead
of analogue, even for the tiny number who don't want broadband.

So what's misleading? That *is* the end of analogue phone service for
those customers.

Post by MikeS
There also seems to be a possible plan to provide a few vulnerable
customers with an analogue service generated at the cabinet but that
is even more confused.

I'm not sure where the analogue service is going to be "recreated".

[Graham J]

Andy Burns wrote:

[snip]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by MikeS
There also seems to be a possible plan to provide a few vulnerable
customers with an analogue service generated at the cabinet but that
is even more confused.

I'm not sure where the analogue service is going to be "recreated".

For the particular instance I am aware of, the customer has been told:

"We have had extended talks with both Openreach and BT. As a result we
have been assured that there was no chance of connection to any digital
pathway but that our copper line would remain available even after the
general cut off date."

(Note: this was verbal: there is nothing in writing!)

This user is in a very rural location (not far from Holbeach in
Lincolnshire), and the copper pair runs well over 8km to the nearest
exchange. There is a mobile phone signal, but it is so weak that it
does not work inside the property.

So far as I am aware, there is no "green cabinet" anywhere along the
(tortuous) route that the copper pair takes to the exchange.

So where would the analogue service be re-created?

[Theo]

Post by Graham J
"We have had extended talks with both Openreach and BT. As a result we
have been assured that there was no chance of connection to any digital
pathway but that our copper line would remain available even after the
general cut off date."
(Note: this was verbal: there is nothing in writing!)
This user is in a very rural location (not far from Holbeach in
Lincolnshire), and the copper pair runs well over 8km to the nearest
exchange. There is a mobile phone signal, but it is so weak that it
does not work inside the property.
So far as I am aware, there is no "green cabinet" anywhere along the
(tortuous) route that the copper pair takes to the exchange.
So where would the analogue service be re-created?

I'm guessing it's somewhere like this:
https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm?xid=68766&cabinets=12525

There's one FTTC cabinet and then the rest are exchange-only lines with no
FTTC available.

Looks like Holbeach is/was in the target area of Upp FTTP but things got a
bit sticky:
https://www.lincsonline.co.uk/spalding/news/government-to-force-sale-of-local-broadband-firm-to-protect-9290579/

Looks like they've been bought by Virgin Media, so now impossible to find
out their coverage area.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by Graham J
This user is in a very rural location (not far from Holbeach in
Lincolnshire), and the copper pair runs well over 8km to the nearest
exchange.  There is a mobile phone signal, but it is so weak that it
does not work inside the property.
So far as I am aware, there is no "green cabinet" anywhere along the
(tortuous) route that the copper pair takes to the exchange.
So where would the analogue service be re-created?

I didn't realise we were talking about your "favourite site" again :-)

I was talking about the SOTAP for analogue service we're told will be
available for people who could have xDSL but don't want it, just want t
keep something that acts like a copper voice circuit.

Clearly that doesn't describe this location, but it is not going to get
a copper/fibre broadband service any time soon, you've investigated
microwave/wifi too ... why not just bite the bullet and go with
Starlink? Wasn't there some form of voucher scheme to help in these
difficult cases?

the website says the whole UK is covered with 125Mb down/25Mb up, with
25ms latency, unlimited data for £225 install and £75 to 95/mo

[Mark Carver]

Post by Theo
In SOGEA the whole frequency band is available for DSL - that means the
DSLAM could decide to use the voice frequencies in order to get some more
bandwidth. That's why it can't coexist with a voice service.
Whether the DSLAMs actually do use the voice frequencies I don't know - I'd
guess the benefits of doing so are fairly limited.

I gather it also depends whether you have a 'fresh connection' or
whether you've just been SOGEA'd to the 'product'.

I still have dial tone (that I can't make 'go away' by dialling, if you
get my drift), and still 50v on the line, so clearly no extra bandwidth
for my line.

I've encountered other SOGEA'erers who do have silence, and no volts,
(and they've been converted from FTTC/PSTN)

[Andy Burns]

Post by Mark Carver
I still have dial tone (that I can't make 'go away' by dialling, if you
get my drift), and still 50v on the line, so clearly no extra bandwidth
for my line.

Maybe one day they'll un-jumper the E-sides of the FTTC cabinet, or
pull-out the PSTN line cards at the exchange?

[Mark Carver]

Post by Andy Burns

I'm surprised that Zen is able to force BT to cancel the landline
number simply because of the conversion to SoGEA.

They couldn't do anything *other* than that, a SOGEA line (unlike a FTTC
line) cannot have a PSTN number.

When I was SOGEA'd last month, my phone number was recognised by this OR
site.......

https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

....right up to the moment (around 17:00 hrs on the day) the phone
service ceased.

From that moment onwards, bunging in my (now dead) PSTN number returns
an error message.

In other words, there are changes straight away 'under the bonnet@

(As I would have expected)

[Andy Burns]

Post by Mark Carver
When I was SOGEA'd last month, my phone number was recognised by this OR
site.......
https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

For months now, that site only ever gives me

"We are sorry but the checker is unavailable at the moment.
Please try again later."

I'm with Plusnet, so I'd expect my number to be visible to BT.

Post by Mark Carver
....right up to the moment (around 17:00 hrs on the day) the phone
service ceased.
From that moment onwards, bunging in my (now dead) PSTN number returns
an error message.

I think you've said you can't be arsed with VoIP, so presumably you
didn't try to use your 30-day "right to port"?

[Mark Carver]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Mark Carver
When I was SOGEA'd last month, my phone number was recognised by this
OR site.......
https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

For months now, that site only ever gives me
    "We are sorry but the checker is unavailable at the moment.
    Please try again later."
I'm with Plusnet, so I'd expect my number to be visible to BT.

Post by Mark Carver
....right up to the moment (around 17:00 hrs on the day) the phone
service ceased.
 From that moment onwards, bunging in my (now dead) PSTN number
returns an error message.

I think you've said you can't be arsed with VoIP, so presumably you
didn't try to use your 30-day "right to port"?

No, the number has floated away into obscurity by now.........

[Theo]

Post by Graham J
- Landline with associated phone number from BT;
- ADSL broadband from Zen.

So that's WLR3 (wholesale line rental 3) I think, the way that broadband and
analogue phone come from different providers.

Post by Graham J
The order acknowledgement from Zen warns that the landline number will
stop working with the conversion to SoGEA. I'm surprised that Zen is
able to force BT to cancel the landline number simply because of the
conversion to SoGEA.
Can anybody explain?

He's moving from a line with WLR3 voice plus separate ADSL on top, to a line
with SOGEA. Since SOGEA is a non-voice product there's no way for BT to
continue to provide service: they don't have a (consumer) product for
running digital voice over somebody else's broadband.

BT will probably send a letter saying 'we can't provide service any more -
if you changed your mind you can stop the change'. But stopping it is all
you can do, you can't move to a different BT product (unless you take BT
broadband too).

Given he has a changeover date booked, I'd be in touch with Voipfone so they have
the porting request in to take effect for the same day or the next day.

He could also ask Zen to take over the number at the same time, but better
to port to Voipfone.

Theo

[Graham J]

Theo wrote:

[snip]

Post by Theo

Post by Graham J
Can anybody explain?

He's moving from a line with WLR3 voice plus separate ADSL on top, to a line
with SOGEA. Since SOGEA is a non-voice product there's no way for BT to
continue to provide service: they don't have a (consumer) product for
running digital voice over somebody else's broadband.

[snip]

Thanks.

[Graham J]

Theo wrote:

[snip]

Post by Theo
Given he has a changeover date booked, I'd be in touch with Voipfone so they have
the porting request in to take effect for the same day or the next day.

We know:

If you try to port a conventional landline number to a VoIP service you
lose the broadband service on that line, thereby defeating the object of
moving to VoIP. So you have to convert your broadband service to SoGEA
first. Then on the conversion date you lose the landline service.

Now Voipfone tell me that they cannot port-in a landline number until
after the SoGEA conversion has completed. This takes typically a week.
But since an Ofcom ruling last year, the landline number is supposed to
be held for a month to allow porting.

So for a week the landline number will not work. Callers will hear the
"unobtainable" tone.

Why did Ofcom allow this? Surely a port-in can be completed in a matter
of minutes, so there should be no need for an unreasonable loss of service?

What is the proper mechanism to ensure SoGEA and number porting can take
place simultaneously?

[Andy Burns]

Post by Graham J
Voipfone tell me that they cannot port-in a landline number until
after the SoGEA conversion has completed. This takes typically a
week. But since an Ofcom ruling last year the landline number is
supposed to be held for a month to allow porting.

General Condition C7.6(b)

<https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0023/256343/unofficial-consolidated-general-conditions-May-2023.pdf>

Post by Graham J
So for a week the landline number will not work.  Callers will hear the
"unobtainable" tone.

I haven't heard the end result from the neighbour who "lost" her fifty
year old PSTN number in a VDSL->SOGEA conversion, last I heard was that
EE needed five days to reclaim it.

Post by Graham J
Why did Ofcom allow this?  Surely a port-in can be completed in a matter
of minutes, so there should be no need for an unreasonable loss of service?
What is the proper mechanism to ensure SoGEA and number porting can take
place simultaneously?

Not sure there is one, I don't think I'd trust many ISPs to get it right
either, A&A probably being the exception, but that's not much use unless

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Theo

Post by Graham J
- Landline with associated phone number from BT;
- ADSL broadband from Zen.

So that's WLR3 (wholesale line rental 3) I think, the way that broadband and
analogue phone come from different providers.

Post by Graham J
The order acknowledgement from Zen warns that the landline number will
stop working with the conversion to SoGEA. I'm surprised that Zen is
able to force BT to cancel the landline number simply because of the
conversion to SoGEA.
Can anybody explain?

He's moving from a line with WLR3 voice plus separate ADSL on top, to a line
with SOGEA. Since SOGEA is a non-voice product there's no way for BT to
continue to provide service: they don't have a (consumer) product for
running digital voice over somebody else's broadband.
BT will probably send a letter saying 'we can't provide service any more -
if you changed your mind you can stop the change'. But stopping it is all
you can do, you can't move to a different BT product (unless you take BT
broadband too).
Given he has a changeover date booked, I'd be in touch with Voipfone so they have
the porting request in to take effect for the same day or the next day.
He could also ask Zen to take over the number at the same time, but better
to port to Voipfone.

Why? Is it based on price, service, or something else? I must say that
although technically reasonably competent, I am not looking forward to
the coming changes as there are too many options and not everything is
clear.

As it happens I have the same setup as the OP mentions - BT phone and
Zen broadband FTTC (fixed price Unlimited Fibre 1, more than ample for
my needs at £22 a month). Other than the supposedly fixed date for SOGEA
by the end of 2025, there's no date set for any change, and it's
unlikely to be anytime soon (the installers are too busy with the new
estates being built around here!), so I doubt we'll see FTTP here before
the end of the decade at the earliest. My BT Pots "Home Saver plan" is
£21.99 a month for unlimited calls, which was useful in the past
although must less so these days. So together I pay £528 a year. No
doubt I could shop around for something cheaper, but Zen's reliability
is very good, and the price is fixed until I am forced to change.

According to <https://www.zen.co.uk/phone/digital-voice>, Zen's Digital
Voice will cost £6 a month. However, nothing on their pages mentions
line rental. In January they sent me an annual email "Your annual best
tariff notification from Zen", which notes the price for "Unlimited
Fibre 1 and Digital Voice (18 Month Contract)" is £38 a month. This
equates to £456 a year. Note too that the current cost for an 18 month
contract for Unlimited Fibre 1 is £32 a month - almost 50% more than I
currently pay, although this is for 35Mbps download rather than the
31Mbps I have at present.

So where does line rental now come in to this? If I go with Zen's
digital voice does it mean that they take over the line rental charge
from BT? Out of interest, have Zen been paying BT something for the use
of their cables (optical or copper) to allow me to use Zen's broadband
service? What do messages 14 and 15 here mean
<https://community.bt.com/t5/Bills-Packages/Line-Rental-Saver/td-p/2299882/page/2>?
Message 15 would appear to suggest that I've been paying BT /and/ Zen
for the line, but I can't believe that's the case.

[Andy Burns]

Zen's Digital Voice will cost £6 a month. However, nothing on their
pages mentions line rental.

What line? If you move to SOGEA with digital voice, the former will
include the price of the copper circuit and the latter will be delivere

[Theo]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Theo
He could also ask Zen to take over the number at the same time, but better
to port to Voipfone.

Why? Is it based on price, service, or something else? I must say that
although technically reasonably competent, I am not looking forward to
the coming changes as there are too many options and not everything is
clear.

Voipfone is a dedicated VOIP provider, Zen are just reselling a BT service
on the side. I haven't looked at the Zen deal specifically but these
services are often poor value (eg 20p/min for calls versus <2p/min). If you
stay entirely within bundled minutes they may be ok, but you often have to
pay an additional monthly payment to get those bundled minutes. It is down
to whether this is a good fit for your usage patterns or not.

Post by Jeff Layman
According to <https://www.zen.co.uk/phone/digital-voice>, Zen's Digital
Voice will cost £6 a month. However, nothing on their pages mentions
line rental. In January they sent me an annual email "Your annual best
tariff notification from Zen", which notes the price for "Unlimited
Fibre 1 and Digital Voice (18 Month Contract)" is £38 a month. This
equates to £456 a year. Note too that the current cost for an 18 month
contract for Unlimited Fibre 1 is £32 a month - almost 50% more than I
currently pay, although this is for 35Mbps download rather than the
31Mbps I have at present.
So where does line rental now come in to this? If I go with Zen's
digital voice does it mean that they take over the line rental charge
from BT?

Line rental has long been a pricing fiction on copper lines: you have to pay
somebody to maintain the copper, irrespective of what services you run down
it. Having phone service doesn't change that.

In the case of separate broadband and phone providers, historically a lot of
cost was loaded onto the phone side of things, which made the broadband
cheaper but the combined price was high. In this era there was a lot of
dubious advertising taking advantage of that ('free broadband, just pay your
usual line rental of £xx per month' - of course you could never take only
the 'free' broadband).

On a modern connection you pay a monthly fee for broadband (whether it's
ADSL, FTTC or FTTP) and then if you want phone service a separate monthly
fee for that. If you don't want phone you just pay for broadband.
It is your choice whether to purchase both services from the same provider,
or to buy them from different providers. Some might say that it's better
to buy your bread from a baker and your meat from a butcher than to buy both
from the corner shop, but the latter is easier to deal with and is a fine
solution if you aren't fussy. On the other hand if you eat a lot of bread
or want particular cuts of meat then going to a specialist is better and
possibly cheaper.

On VOIP the fee for a separate phone service can be from free (eg Sipgate
Basic) upwards - the services regularly mentioned here are Voipfone
(£3.60/month) and A&A (£1.44/month).

Post by Jeff Layman
Out of interest, have Zen been paying BT something for the use
of their cables (optical or copper) to allow me to use Zen's broadband
service? What do messages 14 and 15 here mean
<https://community.bt.com/t5/Bills-Packages/Line-Rental-Saver/td-p/2299882/page/2>?
Message 15 would appear to suggest that I've been paying BT /and/ Zen
for the line, but I can't believe that's the case.

You've been paying money to both BT and Zen. They have both been paying
money to Openreach who have been operating your copper. How the revenue is
divided up is a matter for them, noting that 'BT' here is BT Retail - both
Zen and BT Retail will have paid Openreach to use the Openreach hardware.

Openreach have a big, complicated, book of pricing we could look in to see
how the revenue is divided based on the packages each provider is taking.
But the point is that 'line rental' is not a helpful concept any more (and
hasn't been for 20 years): irrespective of whether you have one service or
two, money will flow from each retail provider to Openreach. It isn't
earmarked for specific things like 'line rental'.

Today if you were to buy say the Zen Fibre 1 package at £32pm that would be
all you would pay - there would be no phone service and no extra 'line
rental'.

You could then add the Zen phone package at £6pm making the total £38pm. Or
instead you could get phone from A&A for £1.44pm making the total £33.44pm.
The Zen package includes 1000 bundled minutes, the A&A package doesn't
(landline calls 1.5p/min, mobile 4p/min). But since phone is now separate
from broadband you can choose a la carte.

Theo

[Richmond]

Post by Theo
On VOIP the fee for a separate phone service can be from free (eg Sipgate
Basic) upwards - the services regularly mentioned here are Voipfone
(£3.60/month) and A&A (£1.44/month).

The subscription is optional for Voipfone if you don't mind having an
056 number on your caller-id.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Richmond
The subscription is optional for Voipfone if you don't mind having an
056 number on your caller-id.

Just don't expect to receive [m]any incoming calls unless you 'buy' an
01/02/03 number.

[Richmond]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Richmond
The subscription is optional for Voipfone if you don't mind having an
056 number on your caller-id.

Just don't expect to receive [m]any incoming calls unless you 'buy' an
01/02/03 number.

Why? I do receive incoming calls.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Richmond

Post by Andy Burns
Just don't expect to receive [m]any incoming calls unless you 'buy' an
01/02/03 number.

Why?

Depending on which network people call an 056 number from, it can cost
up to 40p/min

Post by Richmond
I do receive incoming calls.

[Richmond]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns
Just don't expect to receive [m]any incoming calls unless you 'buy' an
01/02/03 number.

Why?

Depending on which network people call an 056 number from, it can cost
up to 40p/min

It's 5p per minute from Virgin, which is cheaper than calling a landline
if you have no inclusive package.

But in the interests of fairness, I think if Sipgate Basic is described
as free, then Voipfone should be too, because Sipgate Basic doesn't give
you a free landline number anymore as far as I know. What does Sipgate
Basic put in the caller-id?

[Theo]

Post by Richmond
But in the interests of fairness, I think if Sipgate Basic is described
as free, then Voipfone should be too, because Sipgate Basic doesn't give
you a free landline number anymore as far as I know. What does Sipgate
Basic put in the caller-id?

I thought Sipgate allowed you to port in a number for just the one-time
porting fee (£15 or whatever)? Do they not offer you any incoming numbers
now?

VOIP providers who don't offer incoming numbers often let you use a number
you already have as caller ID, after some kind of verification process.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by Theo
I thought Sipgate allowed you to port in a number for just the one-time
porting fee (£15 or whatever)? Do they not offer you any incoming numbers
now?

Dunno, they seem to have closed my ac

[Richmond]

Post by Theo
I thought Sipgate allowed you to port in a number for just the one-time
porting fee (£15 or whatever)? Do they not offer you any incoming numbers
now?

Dunno, they seem to have closed my accounts (likely due to lack of use?)

According to the website they have a free trial which lasts 30 days,
then you have to have a package.

https://www.sipgate.co.uk/prices-tariffs

The FAQ says:

"How much do phone numbers cost? After upgrading to one of our full
team packages, the first UK local or national phone number you book in
your account will be free of charge. This number will be yours to keep
as long as your account remains active. Additional phone numbers will
then be charged for: e.g. one phone number will cost you just £1.95* per
month, a block of 3 numbers is available at £4.95* per month while a
block of 10 numbers is just £9.95* per month."

But what is a full team package? Not free I suspect.

https://www.sipgate.co.uk/numbers

[David Wade]

Post by Richmond

Post by Theo
I thought Sipgate allowed you to port in a number for just the one-time
porting fee (£15 or whatever)? Do they not offer you any incoming numbers
now?

Dunno, they seem to have closed my accounts (likely due to lack of use?)

According to the website they have a free trial which lasts 30 days,
then you have to have a package.
https://www.sipgate.co.uk/prices-tariffs
"How much do phone numbers cost? After upgrading to one of our full
team packages, the first UK local or national phone number you book in
your account will be free of charge. This number will be yours to keep
as long as your account remains active. Additional phone numbers will
then be charged for: e.g. one phone number will cost you just £1.95* per
month, a block of 3 numbers is available at £4.95* per month while a
block of 10 numbers is just £9.95* per month."
But what is a full team package? Not free I suspect.
https://www.sipgate.co.uk/numbers

I wish people would forget SipGate. It no longer offers new domestic
VOIP. The starting level is a two user package at £12.95 per user per month.

https://www.sipgate.co.uk/prices-tariffs

If you make calls then ZEN is pretty good value for money at £6.00
including 1000 minutes to mobiles and landlines.

If you just want to keep the number or are not with Zen then voipfone or
a&a are cheaper.

Dave

[Geoff Clare]

Post by Theo

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Theo
He could also ask Zen to take over the number at the same time, but better
to port to Voipfone.

Why? Is it based on price, service, or something else? I must say that
although technically reasonably competent, I am not looking forward to
the coming changes as there are too many options and not everything is
clear.

Voipfone is a dedicated VOIP provider, Zen are just reselling a BT service
on the side. I haven't looked at the Zen deal specifically but these
services are often poor value (eg 20p/min for calls versus <2p/min). If you
stay entirely within bundled minutes they may be ok, but you often have to
pay an additional monthly payment to get those bundled minutes. It is down
to whether this is a good fit for your usage patterns or not.

The middle option is to start off with Zen's digital voice and then
port the number to a cheaper / better-fit VoIP provider a short time
later. This is what I did when I moved from FTTC to FTTP because
having Zen handle the initial change-over was the only way I could be
sure of keeping both my phone number and the same static IP address.
(This was before the new OFCOM rule about being able to port numbers
after service has ceased. Also, if I hadn't cared about the static IP
I could have ordered FTTP as a new service first, then ported my phone
number to A&A; of course, that isn't an option if moving to SOGEA
instead of FTTP.)

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Theo

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Theo
He could also ask Zen to take over the number at the same time, but better
to port to Voipfone.

Why? Is it based on price, service, or something else? I must say that
although technically reasonably competent, I am not looking forward to
the coming changes as there are too many options and not everything is
clear.

Voipfone is a dedicated VOIP provider, Zen are just reselling a BT service
on the side. I haven't looked at the Zen deal specifically but these
services are often poor value (eg 20p/min for calls versus <2p/min). If you
stay entirely within bundled minutes they may be ok, but you often have to
pay an additional monthly payment to get those bundled minutes. It is down
to whether this is a good fit for your usage patterns or not.

Post by Jeff Layman
According to <https://www.zen.co.uk/phone/digital-voice>, Zen's Digital
Voice will cost £6 a month. However, nothing on their pages mentions
line rental. In January they sent me an annual email "Your annual best
tariff notification from Zen", which notes the price for "Unlimited
Fibre 1 and Digital Voice (18 Month Contract)" is £38 a month. This
equates to £456 a year. Note too that the current cost for an 18 month
contract for Unlimited Fibre 1 is £32 a month - almost 50% more than I
currently pay, although this is for 35Mbps download rather than the
31Mbps I have at present.
So where does line rental now come in to this? If I go with Zen's
digital voice does it mean that they take over the line rental charge
from BT?

Line rental has long been a pricing fiction on copper lines: you have to pay
somebody to maintain the copper, irrespective of what services you run down
it. Having phone service doesn't change that.
In the case of separate broadband and phone providers, historically a lot of
cost was loaded onto the phone side of things, which made the broadband
cheaper but the combined price was high. In this era there was a lot of
dubious advertising taking advantage of that ('free broadband, just pay your
usual line rental of £xx per month' - of course you could never take only
the 'free' broadband).
On a modern connection you pay a monthly fee for broadband (whether it's
ADSL, FTTC or FTTP) and then if you want phone service a separate monthly
fee for that. If you don't want phone you just pay for broadband.
It is your choice whether to purchase both services from the same provider,
or to buy them from different providers. Some might say that it's better
to buy your bread from a baker and your meat from a butcher than to buy both
from the corner shop, but the latter is easier to deal with and is a fine
solution if you aren't fussy. On the other hand if you eat a lot of bread
or want particular cuts of meat then going to a specialist is better and
possibly cheaper.
On VOIP the fee for a separate phone service can be from free (eg Sipgate
Basic) upwards - the services regularly mentioned here are Voipfone
(£3.60/month) and A&A (£1.44/month).

Post by Jeff Layman
Out of interest, have Zen been paying BT something for the use
of their cables (optical or copper) to allow me to use Zen's broadband
service? What do messages 14 and 15 here mean
<https://community.bt.com/t5/Bills-Packages/Line-Rental-Saver/td-p/2299882/page/2>?
Message 15 would appear to suggest that I've been paying BT /and/ Zen
for the line, but I can't believe that's the case.

You've been paying money to both BT and Zen. They have both been paying
money to Openreach who have been operating your copper. How the revenue is
divided up is a matter for them, noting that 'BT' here is BT Retail - both
Zen and BT Retail will have paid Openreach to use the Openreach hardware.
Openreach have a big, complicated, book of pricing we could look in to see
how the revenue is divided based on the packages each provider is taking.
But the point is that 'line rental' is not a helpful concept any more (and
hasn't been for 20 years): irrespective of whether you have one service or
two, money will flow from each retail provider to Openreach. It isn't
earmarked for specific things like 'line rental'.
Today if you were to buy say the Zen Fibre 1 package at £32pm that would be
all you would pay - there would be no phone service and no extra 'line
rental'.
You could then add the Zen phone package at £6pm making the total £38pm. Or
instead you could get phone from A&A for £1.44pm making the total £33.44pm.
The Zen package includes 1000 bundled minutes, the A&A package doesn't
(landline calls 1.5p/min, mobile 4p/min). But since phone is now separate
from broadband you can choose a la carte.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I've no idea why I confused
Voipfone with VoIP!

I'll probably go with the Zen Fibre 1 plus Digital voice. At present we
use nowhere near the 1000 minute allowance, but things can change. I
also know how easy it is to phone someone for a couple of minutes chat,
only to find you're still on the phone 30 minutes later! It's supposedly
easier to change suppliers now, so I guess I could change from Zen to
VoIP at a later date if that worked out much cheaper. On that point, if
A&A are only £1.44/month + 1.5p or 4.5p/minute, why are those listed at
<https://www.techopedia.com/voip/best-voip-home-phone-uk> considered
best VoIP home providers when they seem to cost more up front (other
than Ooma, who seem to be business-oriented rather than home anyway)? It
seems to me that "Caveat emptor" is applying more and more these days!

[Andy Burns]

At present we use nowhere near the 1000 minute allowance, but things can
change. I also know how easy it is to phone someone for a couple of
minutes chat, only to find you're still on the phone 30 minutes later!

I hadn't realised how stupidly expensive BT/plusnet phone calls had got,
20+p/minute

I only have E&W call bundle from plusnet, and even then I use mobile
anyway most of the time as that is unlimited for 01/02/03/mobile numbers

[Theo]

Post by Jeff Layman
I'll probably go with the Zen Fibre 1 plus Digital voice. At present we
use nowhere near the 1000 minute allowance, but things can change. I
also know how easy it is to phone someone for a couple of minutes chat,
only to find you're still on the phone 30 minutes later! It's supposedly
easier to change suppliers now, so I guess I could change from Zen to
VoIP at a later date if that worked out much cheaper.

That sounds fair. I would check whether Zen let you switch away from their
digital voice offering mid-contract, or whether you have to wait out the
rest of the contract before you can disable it.

Post by Jeff Layman
On that point, if A&A are only £1.44/month + 1.5p or 4.5p/minute, why are
those listed at <https://www.techopedia.com/voip/best-voip-home-phone-uk>
considered best VoIP home providers when they seem to cost more up front
(other than Ooma, who seem to be business-oriented rather than home
anyway)? It seems to me that "Caveat emptor" is applying more and more
these days!

Any web page with 'best' in the title (especially 'best' and '2024') is just
search engine spam, usually with links paying affiliate commission (as this
one is). 'Best' in this case refers to the best for them, not the best for
you.

Theo

[Davey]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 09:16:41 +0100

Post by Jeff Layman
As it happens I have the same setup as the OP mentions - BT phone and
Zen broadband FTTC

I left BT after getting totally confused by their 'Make a price
increase on the first of the month, then charge for a month at the
new price but have the monthly break in the middle of the month'
process. Every time, there was a 2nd calculation to refund the weeks at
the original rate, then a 3rd calculation to recharge the reduced weeks
at the new rate. After all that, it was hard to follow the
calculations, to me it resembled the three card trick. So I transferred
my POTS line to Zen, as well as the broadband. My line price has never
increased, and it was lower than BT's on the day I started it.

And they talk English, well, Lancashire, when you call for assistance,
as opposed to some language that you can't understand.

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by Davey
On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 09:16:41 +0100

Post by Jeff Layman
As it happens I have the same setup as the OP mentions - BT phone and
Zen broadband FTTC

I left BT after getting totally confused by their 'Make a price
increase on the first of the month, then charge for a month at the
new price but have the monthly break in the middle of the month'
process. Every time, there was a 2nd calculation to refund the weeks at
the original rate, then a 3rd calculation to recharge the reduced weeks
at the new rate. After all that, it was hard to follow the
calculations, to me it resembled the three card trick. So I transferred
my POTS line to Zen, as well as the broadband. My line price has never
increased, and it was lower than BT's on the day I started it.
And they talk English, well, Lancashire, when you call for assistance,
as opposed to some language that you can't understand.

More or less the same story here. I don't know how complicated it
would have been to upgrade to fibre if I'd had separate accounts for
phone and broadband, but by the time I did the upgrade I had both
services from Zen so I only had to deal with one company. I'm sure
that must have helped to keep it simple.

Rod.

[David Wade]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Theo

Post by Graham J
- Landline with associated phone number from BT;
- ADSL broadband from Zen.

So that's WLR3 (wholesale line rental 3) I think, the way that broadband and
analogue phone come from different providers.

Post by Graham J
The order acknowledgement from Zen warns that the landline number will
stop working with the conversion to SoGEA.  I'm surprised that Zen is
able to force BT to cancel the landline number simply because of the
conversion to SoGEA.
Can anybody explain?

He's moving from a line with WLR3 voice plus separate ADSL on top, to a line
with SOGEA.  Since SOGEA is a non-voice product there's no way for BT to
continue to provide service: they don't have a (consumer) product for
running digital voice over somebody else's broadband.
BT will probably send a letter saying 'we can't provide service any more -
if you changed your mind you can stop the change'.  But stopping it is
all
you can do, you can't move to a different BT product (unless you take BT
broadband too).
Given he has a changeover date booked, I'd be in touch with Voipfone so they have
the porting request in to take effect for the same day or the next day.
He could also ask Zen to take over the number at the same time, but better
to port to Voipfone.

Why? Is it based on price, service, or something else? I must say that
although technically reasonably competent, I am not looking forward to
the coming changes as there are too many options and not everything is
clear.

If you use your landline to make calls, you don't need to worry. The
default service Zen provide will be fine.

Many people have mobile contracts so just want to keep the number for
old friends who ring it, not to make calls. For these Voipfone or A&A
can offer cheaper options.

The ZEN digital voice is locked into to you Fritz!Box so you need to
keep the Fritz!Box. At £6.00 its more expensive but it includes 1000
minutes so over 16 hours of calls, so if you make more that a few
trivial calls its cheaper, hence for you its the obvious choice.

Note:- I have Voipfone which I access with my Fritz!box.

Post by Jeff Layman
As it happens I have the same setup as the OP mentions - BT phone and
Zen broadband FTTC (fixed price Unlimited Fibre 1, more than ample for
my needs at £22 a month). Other than the supposedly fixed date for SOGEA
by the end of 2025, there's no date set for any change, and it's
unlikely to be anytime soon (the installers are too busy with the new
estates being built around here!), so I doubt we'll see FTTP here before
the end of the decade at the earliest. My BT Pots "Home Saver plan" is
£21.99 a month for unlimited calls, which was useful in the past
although must less so these days. So together I pay £528 a year. No
doubt I could shop around for something cheaper, but Zen's reliability
is very good, and the price is fixed until I am forced to change.

Well SOGEA would be a change, so you could lose that fixed price contract.

Post by Jeff Layman
According to <https://www.zen.co.uk/phone/digital-voice>, Zen's Digital
Voice will cost £6 a month. However, nothing on their pages mentions
line rental.

There is no line with SOGEA so no line rental.

Post by Jeff Layman
In January they sent me an annual email "Your annual best
tariff notification from Zen", which notes the price for  "Unlimited
Fibre 1 and Digital Voice (18 Month Contract)" is £38 a month. This
equates to £456 a year. Note too that the current cost for an 18 month
contract for Unlimited Fibre 1 is £32 a month - almost 50% more than I
currently pay, although this is for 35Mbps download rather than the
31Mbps I have at present.

Thats why ZEN have abandoned fixed price contracts. Costs have risen.
They need to charge more.

Post by Jeff Layman
So where does line rental now come in to this? If I go with Zen's
digital voice does it mean that they take over the line rental charge
from BT?

They would switch you to SOGEA so the line as such is no longer needed.

Out of interest, have Zen been paying BT something for the use

Post by Jeff Layman
of their cables (optical or copper) to allow me to use Zen's broadband
service?

Of course. ZEN's traffic travels over BT copper between your house and
the cabinet, and BT Fibre back to the Exchange. ZEN buy this service
from BT.

Post by Jeff Layman
What do messages 14 and 15 here mean
<https://community.bt.com/t5/Bills-Packages/Line-Rental-Saver/td-p/2299882/page/2>? Message 15 would appear to suggest that I've been paying BT /and/ Zen for the line, but I can't believe that's the case.

At £21/month, no chance. The original FTTC service requires a phone line
so you buy that from BT.

Personally I would ring ZEN and ask:-

1. If I select digital voice will that cease my line rental from BT and
save me £14.99/month (£21.99 BT less £6.00 for ZEN digital voice)

2. If I select Digital Voice Will I still keep my fixed price internet

3. Please confirm these answers in an e-mail.

Dave

[Jeff Layman]

Post by David Wade

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Theo

Post by Graham J
- Landline with associated phone number from BT;
- ADSL broadband from Zen.

So that's WLR3 (wholesale line rental 3) I think, the way that broadband and
analogue phone come from different providers.

Post by Graham J
The order acknowledgement from Zen warns that the landline number will
stop working with the conversion to SoGEA.  I'm surprised that Zen is
able to force BT to cancel the landline number simply because of the
conversion to SoGEA.
Can anybody explain?

He's moving from a line with WLR3 voice plus separate ADSL on top, to a line
with SOGEA.  Since SOGEA is a non-voice product there's no way for BT to
continue to provide service: they don't have a (consumer) product for
running digital voice over somebody else's broadband.
BT will probably send a letter saying 'we can't provide service any more -
if you changed your mind you can stop the change'.  But stopping it is
all
you can do, you can't move to a different BT product (unless you take BT
broadband too).
Given he has a changeover date booked, I'd be in touch with Voipfone so they have
the porting request in to take effect for the same day or the next day.
He could also ask Zen to take over the number at the same time, but better
to port to Voipfone.

Why? Is it based on price, service, or something else? I must say that
although technically reasonably competent, I am not looking forward to
the coming changes as there are too many options and not everything is
clear.

If you use your landline to make calls, you don't need to worry. The
default service Zen provide will be fine.
Many people have mobile contracts so just want to keep the number for
old friends who ring it, not to make calls. For these Voipfone or A&A
can offer cheaper options.
The ZEN digital voice is locked into to you Fritz!Box so you need to
keep the Fritz!Box. At £6.00 its more expensive but it includes 1000
minutes so over 16 hours of calls, so if you make more that a few
trivial calls its cheaper, hence for you its the obvious choice.

I'm quite happy with the Fritz!Box. It does all I need and so far has
been very reliable over the 4.5 years I've had it.

Post by David Wade
Note:- I have Voipfone which I access with my Fritz!box.

Post by Jeff Layman
As it happens I have the same setup as the OP mentions - BT phone and
Zen broadband FTTC (fixed price Unlimited Fibre 1, more than ample for
my needs at £22 a month). Other than the supposedly fixed date for SOGEA
by the end of 2025, there's no date set for any change, and it's
unlikely to be anytime soon (the installers are too busy with the new
estates being built around here!), so I doubt we'll see FTTP here before
the end of the decade at the earliest. My BT Pots "Home Saver plan" is
£21.99 a month for unlimited calls, which was useful in the past
although must less so these days. So together I pay £528 a year. No
doubt I could shop around for something cheaper, but Zen's reliability
is very good, and the price is fixed until I am forced to change.

Well SOGEA would be a change, so you could lose that fixed price contract.

I've no doubt about that, although it would be fixed for 18 months

Post by David Wade

Post by Jeff Layman
According to <https://www.zen.co.uk/phone/digital-voice>, Zen's Digital
Voice will cost £6 a month. However, nothing on their pages mentions
line rental.

There is no line with SOGEA so no line rental.

Not in that term as such, but I'd be paying for the use of fibre/copper
use and maintenance to someone, whether it be BT, Zen, or eventually
OpenReach.

Post by David Wade

Post by Jeff Layman
In January they sent me an annual email "Your annual best
tariff notification from Zen", which notes the price for  "Unlimited
Fibre 1 and Digital Voice (18 Month Contract)" is £38 a month. This
equates to £456 a year. Note too that the current cost for an 18 month
contract for Unlimited Fibre 1 is £32 a month - almost 50% more than I
currently pay, although this is for 35Mbps download rather than the
31Mbps I have at present.

Thats why ZEN have abandoned fixed price contracts. Costs have risen.
They need to charge more.

I'll have to change sooner or later anyway when I have to change to
Digital Voice. It's just a matter of choosing the best time.

Post by David Wade

Post by Jeff Layman
So where does line rental now come in to this? If I go with Zen's
digital voice does it mean that they take over the line rental charge
from BT?

They would switch you to SOGEA so the line as such is no longer needed.
Out of interest, have Zen been paying BT something for the use

Post by Jeff Layman
of their cables (optical or copper) to allow me to use Zen's broadband
service?

Of course. ZEN's traffic travels over BT copper between your house and
the cabinet, and BT Fibre back to the Exchange. ZEN buy this service
from BT.

Post by Jeff Layman
What do messages 14 and 15 here mean
<https://community.bt.com/t5/Bills-Packages/Line-Rental-Saver/td-p/2299882/page/2>? Message 15 would appear to suggest that I've been paying BT /and/ Zen for the line, but I can't believe that's the case.

At £21/month, no chance. The original FTTC service requires a phone line
so you buy that from BT.
Personally I would ring ZEN and ask:-
1. If I select digital voice will that cease my line rental from BT and
save me £14.99/month (£21.99 BT less £6.00 for ZEN digital voice)
2. If I select Digital Voice Will I still keep my fixed price internet
3. Please confirm these answers in an e-mail.

That's a good suggestion, although I think I'll try to do it all via
email if it's possible. Companies seem to like using "Chat", but I'm not
so keen as it's often not easy to get a record of what was written.

[David Wade]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by David Wade

Post by Jeff Layman
According to <https://www.zen.co.uk/phone/digital-voice>, Zen's Digital
Voice will cost £6 a month. However, nothing on their pages mentions
line rental.

There is no line with SOGEA so no line rental.

Not in that term as such, but I'd be paying for the use of fibre/copper
use and maintenance to someone, whether it be BT, Zen, or eventually
OpenReach.

That is included in your broadband package. So at present your phone
line rental covers the exchange equipment, the copper pair between the
exchange and the nearest cabinet, and the drop from the cabinet to your
house. I guess BT are now disregarding the drop to the house.

Your broadband covers the cabinets and fibre back to some central point
which may be a different one to the one your phone line.

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by David Wade

Post by Jeff Layman
In January they sent me an annual email "Your annual best
tariff notification from Zen", which notes the price for  "Unlimited
Fibre 1 and Digital Voice (18 Month Contract)" is £38 a month. This
equates to £456 a year. Note too that the current cost for an 18 month
contract for Unlimited Fibre 1 is £32 a month - almost 50% more than I
currently pay, although this is for 35Mbps download rather than the
31Mbps I have at present.

Thats why ZEN have abandoned fixed price contracts. Costs have risen.
They need to charge more.

I'll have to change sooner or later anyway when I have to change to
Digital Voice. It's just a matter of choosing the best time.

Post by David Wade

Post by Jeff Layman
So where does line rental now come in to this? If I go with Zen's
digital voice does it mean that they take over the line rental charge
from BT?

They would switch you to SOGEA so the line as such is no longer needed.
Out of interest, have Zen been paying BT something for the use

Post by Jeff Layman
of their cables (optical or copper) to allow me to use Zen's broadband
service?

Of course. ZEN's traffic travels over BT copper between your house and
the cabinet, and BT Fibre back to the Exchange. ZEN buy this service
from BT.

Post by Jeff Layman
What do messages 14 and 15 here mean
<https://community.bt.com/t5/Bills-Packages/Line-Rental-Saver/td-p/2299882/page/2>? Message 15 would appear to suggest that I've been paying BT /and/ Zen for the line, but I can't believe that's the case.

At £21/month, no chance. The original FTTC service requires a phone line
so you buy that from BT.
Personally I would ring ZEN and ask:-
1. If I select digital voice will that cease my line rental from BT and
save me £14.99/month (£21.99 BT less £6.00 for ZEN digital voice)
2. If I select Digital Voice Will I still keep my fixed price internet
3. Please confirm these answers in an e-mail.

That's a good suggestion, although I think I'll try to do it all via
email if it's possible. Companies seem to like using "Chat", but I'm not
so keen as it's often not easy to get a record of what was written.

The Zen one will send you a record via E-Mail. Zen have an e-mail form
on the web site. The chatbot tried to get me to phone.

Dave