Fate of Copper Lines

[Jeff Gaines]

Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
going live.

Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the copper
now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.

I know copper will disappear eventually but will BT just turn it off
especially since they don't have a fibre offering of their own?

[JMB99]

Post by Jeff Gaines
Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
going live.
Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
copper now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.
I know copper will disappear eventually but will BT just turn it off
especially since they don't have a fibre offering of their own?

Reminiscent of TV Digital Switch Over when salesmen were going around
telling people that broadcast TV was being switched off and they had to
move to SKY.

Sales people will say anything to get their commission.

[Marco Moock]

Post by Jeff Gaines
Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
copper now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.

If you have a contract for a service over copper, this contract must be
canceled by the company to do so.
Did they cancel it or announced they will do?

[Tweed]

Post by Jeff Gaines
Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
going live.
Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the copper
now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.
I know copper will disappear eventually but will BT just turn it off
especially since they don't have a fibre offering of their own?

I know of no circumstance where BT/Open Reach have abandoned their
infrastructure because a competing provider has set up in an area.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Jeff Gaines
Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
going live.
Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
copper now the village has fibre

BT will only 'turn off' copper when their *own* fibre goes live.

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Jeff Gaines
Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
going live.
Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
copper now the village has fibre

BT will only 'turn off' copper when their own fibre goes live.

Many thanks for all the replies :-)

Very sad when salesmen have to resort to tricks like this.

[Graham J]

Jeff Gaines wrote:

[snip]

Post by Jeff Gaines
Very sad when salesmen have to resort to tricks like this.

A salesman by definition lies. Now it's also true of politicians.

[Flyiñg Ñuñ 2°22+]

Post by Jeff Gaines
Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is
gradually going live.
Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
copper now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.
I know copper will disappear eventually but will BT just turn it off
especially since they don't have a fibre offering of their own?

Hi Jeff!! How you doing these days?

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Flyiñg Ñuñ 2°22+
Hi Jeff!! How you doing these days?

Hi FN :-)

OK, moved back to near the New Forest, couldn't stand living with a bunch
of oldies on a retirement development!

[Flyiñg Ñuñ 2°22+]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Flyiñg Ñuñ 2°22+
Hi Jeff!! How you doing these days?

Hi FN :-)
OK, moved back to near the New Forest, couldn't stand living with a
bunch of oldies on a retirement development!

Hope the move works out for you OK then. What are new neighbours like?

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Flyiñg Ñuñ 2°22+

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Flyiñg Ñuñ 2°22+
Hi Jeff!! How you doing these days?

Hi FN :-)
OK, moved back to near the New Forest, couldn't stand living with a
bunch of oldies on a retirement development!

Hope the move works out for you OK then. What are new neighbours like?

Only have them on side and seem very nice.

[Flyiñg Ñuñ 2°22+]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Flyiñg Ñuñ 2°22+

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Flyiñg Ñuñ 2°22+
Hi Jeff!! How you doing these days?

Hi FN :-)
OK, moved back to near the New Forest, couldn't stand living with a
bunch of oldies on a retirement development!

Hope the move works out for you OK then. What are new neighbours like?

Only have them on side and seem very nice.

Don't get too lonely then!! Not like UPS and the café. :(

[Peter Johnson]

Post by Jeff Gaines
Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
going live.
Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the copper
now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.

Giganet have been coming round here, in a City Fibre area, saying that
residents have been complaining about their WiFi speeds, and therefore
they need better broadband. They don't like it when I point out that
WiFi speed is a factor of the router and not the broadband.
Three of them have been here to date and one of them tried to tell me
that my City Fibre connection was delivered over copper.

[MikeS]

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by Jeff Gaines
Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
going live.
Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the copper
now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.

Giganet have been coming round here, in a City Fibre area, saying that
residents have been complaining about their WiFi speeds, and therefore
they need better broadband. They don't like it when I point out that
WiFi speed is a factor of the router and not the broadband.
Three of them have been here to date and one of them tried to tell me
that my City Fibre connection was delivered over copper.

This thread seems to be yet another example of confusing copper and
analogue.

BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection. Most
of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.

[Graham J]

MikeS wrote:

[snip]

Post by MikeS
BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection. Most
of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.

Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times per
day taking a minute to do so each time. VDSL is better if the green
cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than that and
you get poor speeds and variable reliability. A re-sync still takes
about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

I've noticed that FTTP is being rolled out in populated rural areas
where copper broadband is unreliable. In less populated areas where
copper broadband is effectively not available there's no evidence of
fibre being installed.

But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
by 2025 as threatened by Openreach. It will be a disaster, mainly
because the public has not been properly informed. Listen to any Radio
4 consumer program.

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by Graham J
But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
by 2025 as threatened by Openreach. It will be a disaster, mainly
because the public has not been properly informed. Listen to any Radio
4 consumer program.

Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I
even kept my old landline phone number.

Rod.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Graham J
But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
by 2025 as threatened by Openreach. It will be a disaster

Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly.

Likewise here with FTTC.

[Graham J]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Graham J
But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
by 2025 as threatened by Openreach. It will be a disaster, mainly
because the public has not been properly informed. Listen to any Radio
4 consumer program.

Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I
even kept my old landline phone number.

Equally I have FTTP and VoIP but in my case I use a 3rd party VoIP
service so I can keep my router rather than using the one offered by my
ISP for their "Digital Voice" service. I also have a small UPS to
support the ONT, router, and VoIP base-station, si I can tolerate short
term mains power failures (common in rural areas).

But the fact that you and I have it working doesn't alter that fact that
many people have struggled.

[JMB99]

Post by Roderick Stewart
Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I even
kept my old landline phone number.

Many areas have no overhead lines, none anywhere near my house.

I have no idea where the cable runs but probably under my drive which
would need digging up then resurfacing along with the pavement. The
cable then must come up under house so the wall would have to be drilled.

[Chris]

Post by JMB99

Post by Roderick Stewart
Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I even
kept my old landline phone number.

Many areas have no overhead lines, none anywhere near my house.
I have no idea where the cable runs but probably under my drive which
would need digging up then resurfacing along with the pavement. The
cable then must come up under house so the wall would have to be drilled.

Similar here. I know there's a "junction" at the bottom of my garden that
feeds several of the neighbours. The street cabinet is about 100m away.
Then I presume the cable runs underground under the house to the master
socket which is in the middle of the house. There's virtually no crawl
space under the house so I've no idea how a fibre cable would be installed.
I suspect a lot of digging required.

[Tim+]

Post by Chris

Post by JMB99

Post by Roderick Stewart
Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I even
kept my old landline phone number.

Many areas have no overhead lines, none anywhere near my house.
I have no idea where the cable runs but probably under my drive which
would need digging up then resurfacing along with the pavement. The
cable then must come up under house so the wall would have to be drilled.

Similar here. I know there's a "junction" at the bottom of my garden that
feeds several of the neighbours. The street cabinet is about 100m away.
Then I presume the cable runs underground under the house to the master
socket which is in the middle of the house. There's virtually no crawl
space under the house so I've no idea how a fibre cable would be installed.
I suspect a lot of digging required.

It probably won’t go anywhere near your old master socket. Fibre through
conduit from street up to you house, hole drilled through outside wall to
where your new “master” socket will be.

Tim

[Chris]

Post by Tim+

Post by Chris

Post by JMB99

Post by Roderick Stewart
Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I even
kept my old landline phone number.

Many areas have no overhead lines, none anywhere near my house.
I have no idea where the cable runs but probably under my drive which
would need digging up then resurfacing along with the pavement. The
cable then must come up under house so the wall would have to be drilled.

Similar here. I know there's a "junction" at the bottom of my garden that
feeds several of the neighbours. The street cabinet is about 100m away.
Then I presume the cable runs underground under the house to the master
socket which is in the middle of the house. There's virtually no crawl
space under the house so I've no idea how a fibre cable would be installed.
I suspect a lot of digging required.

It probably won’t go anywhere near your old master socket. Fibre through
conduit from street up to you house, hole drilled through outside wall to
where your new “master” socket will be.

But I don't want a new master socket elsewhere in the house. Having the
router in the middle of house works well.

[Tim+]

Post by Chris

Post by Tim+

Post by Chris

Post by JMB99

Post by Roderick Stewart
Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I even
kept my old landline phone number.

Many areas have no overhead lines, none anywhere near my house.
I have no idea where the cable runs but probably under my drive which
would need digging up then resurfacing along with the pavement. The
cable then must come up under house so the wall would have to be drilled.

Similar here. I know there's a "junction" at the bottom of my garden that
feeds several of the neighbours. The street cabinet is about 100m away.
Then I presume the cable runs underground under the house to the master
socket which is in the middle of the house. There's virtually no crawl
space under the house so I've no idea how a fibre cable would be installed.
I suspect a lot of digging required.

It probably won’t go anywhere near your old master socket. Fibre through
conduit from street up to you house, hole drilled through outside wall to
where your new “master” socket will be.

But I don't want a new master socket elsewhere in the house. Having the
router in the middle of house works well.

We don’t always get what we want.

Anything is possible (within reason) but a “standard” fibre installation is
unlikely to include anything other than fitting a new master socket on an
outside wall where your fibre arrives.

If you want something more complicated then DIY it or get a person in to do
it.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Chris
But I don't want a new master socket elsewhere in the house. Having the
router in the middle of house works well.

Then you might have to pay if you want it extended to somewhere other
that the easiest point of entry ...

[Graham J]

Chris wrote:

[snip]

Post by Chris

Post by Tim+
It probably won’t go anywhere near your old master socket. Fibre through
conduit from street up to your house, hole drilled through outside wall to
where your new “master” socket will be.

But I don't want a new master socket elsewhere in the house. Having the
router in the middle of house works well.

You're lucky. Most people have the copper master socket in the least
convenient place for good WiFi and Ethernet connections. Some people
have gone to significant trouble to get the master socket and router
placed in the room they use for an office.

An issue with the fibre ONT is that it needs a nearby mains power
supply. So the most obvious solution is to run the fibre cable to the
centre of the house. If that isn't possible then the ONT can be placed
on an external wall adjacent to a power socket, and an Ethernet cable
run from there to the centre of the house where you have your router.

But the fibre cable is about the same diameter as an Ethernet cable so
(in principle) it would be just as easy to run the fibre from the
outside wall to the centre of the house. In practise the Openreach
technician may be unwilling to do so, but you could make this easier by
installing a suitable duct through which he could run the fibre cable.
If you plan any redecoration work in the near future that would be an
ideal opportunity to install a suitable duct.

Many fibre installs involve a site visit to plan the work, followed by a
visit to actually implement what has been planned. So a careful
discussion with the techician doing the site visit will be well worthwhile.

[Chris]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Chris

Post by Tim+
It probably won’t go anywhere near your old master socket. Fibre through
conduit from street up to your house, hole drilled through outside wall to
where your new “master” socket will be.

But I don't want a new master socket elsewhere in the house. Having the
router in the middle of house works well.

You're lucky. Most people have the copper master socket in the least
convenient place for good WiFi and Ethernet connections. Some people
have gone to significant trouble to get the master socket and router
placed in the room they use for an office.
An issue with the fibre ONT is that it needs a nearby mains power
supply. So the most obvious solution is to run the fibre cable to the
centre of the house. If that isn't possible then the ONT can be placed
on an external wall adjacent to a power socket, and an Ethernet cable
run from there to the centre of the house where you have your router.
But the fibre cable is about the same diameter as an Ethernet cable so
(in principle) it would be just as easy to run the fibre from the
outside wall to the centre of the house. In practise the Openreach
technician may be unwilling to do so, but you could make this easier by
installing a suitable duct through which he could run the fibre cable.
If you plan any redecoration work in the near future that would be an
ideal opportunity to install a suitable duct.
Many fibre installs involve a site visit to plan the work, followed by a
visit to actually implement what has been planned. So a careful
discussion with the techician doing the site visit will be well worthwhile.

That's a good idea. Not that this is going to happen anytime soon here.
We're in a suburban cul-de-sac and fibre installations are focused along
main roads or the city centre. Am very happy with the FTTC connection and
don't feel a need to move.

[Graham J]

Chris wrote:

[snip]

Post by Chris

Post by Graham J
Many fibre installs involve a site visit to plan the work, followed by a
visit to actually implement what has been planned. So a careful
discussion with the techician doing the site visit will be well worthwhile.

That's a good idea. Not that this is going to happen anytime soon here.
We're in a suburban cul-de-sac and fibre installations are focused along
main roads or the city centre. Am very happy with the FTTC connection and
don't feel a need to move.

VoIP will be delivered over existing FTTC probably until hell freezes
over in urban areas like yours.

Unless you order a new service, in which case neither Openreach nor any
of their resellers will install copper. In principle they will install
FTTP. However, there is a get-out - if Openreach does not have any FTTP
plant available they might still install a new copper pair to support
broadband only - called SOGEA.

The fact that "... you are very happy with the FTTC connection and don't
feel a need to move" is irrelevant. At some point in the future it will
be forced on you. So it would be as well to understand the limitations
that fibre presents - the need for mains power adjacent to the ONT, and
a UPS for the ONT, router (and phone) if you need to guarantee voice
service during a power failure.

[Chris]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Chris

Post by Graham J
Many fibre installs involve a site visit to plan the work, followed by a
visit to actually implement what has been planned. So a careful
discussion with the techician doing the site visit will be well worthwhile.

That's a good idea. Not that this is going to happen anytime soon here.
We're in a suburban cul-de-sac and fibre installations are focused along
main roads or the city centre. Am very happy with the FTTC connection and
don't feel a need to move.

VoIP will be delivered over existing FTTC probably until hell freezes
over in urban areas like yours.

I'm ready. I have a dual DECT/VOIP base station in place.

Post by Graham J
Unless you order a new service, in which case neither Openreach nor any
of their resellers will install copper. In principle they will install
FTTP.

None here despite activity nearby.

Post by Graham J
However, there is a get-out - if Openreach does not have any FTTP
plant available they might still install a new copper pair to support
broadband only - called SOGEA.
The fact that "... you are very happy with the FTTC connection and don't
feel a need to move" is irrelevant. At some point in the future it will
be forced on you.

I'm aware.

Post by Graham J
So it would be as well to understand the limitations
that fibre presents - the need for mains power adjacent to the ONT, and
a UPS for the ONT, router (and phone) if you need to guarantee voice
service during a power failure.

Fortunately, power is very stable here. Maybe two times I remember in
nearly 18 years and only one was for more than 10-15 minutes.

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by Graham J
The fact that "... you are very happy with the FTTC connection and don't
feel a need to move" is irrelevant. At some point in the future it will
be forced on you. So it would be as well to understand the limitations
that fibre presents - the need for mains power adjacent to the ONT, and
a UPS for the ONT, router (and phone) if you need to guarantee voice
service during a power failure.

In other words, the same limitations that already apply to any
internet router, desktop PC, or cordless phone.

If it's not a problem now, it won't be a problem after the
installation of fibre, and if it is, it's easily solved.

Rod.

[bert]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Graham J
The fact that "... you are very happy with the FTTC connection and don't
feel a need to move" is irrelevant. At some point in the future it will
be forced on you. So it would be as well to understand the limitations
that fibre presents - the need for mains power adjacent to the ONT, and
a UPS for the ONT, router (and phone) if you need to guarantee voice
service during a power failure.

In other words, the same limitations that already apply to any
internet router, desktop PC, or cordless phone.
If it's not a problem now, it won't be a problem after the
installation of fibre, and if it is, it's easily solved.
Rod.

I follow the advice and have a POTS phone available for use in the event
of power failure.

[JMB99]

Post by Chris
That's a good idea. Not that this is going to happen anytime soon here.
We're in a suburban cul-de-sac and fibre installations are focused along
main roads or the city centre. Am very happy with the FTTC connection
and don't feel a need to move.

Local BT man told me they will doing the areas with dodgy broadband
first, often rural areas further from the cabinet or exchange.

[Graham J]

Post by JMB99

Post by Chris
That's a good idea. Not that this is going to happen anytime soon
here. We're in a suburban cul-de-sac and fibre installations are
focused along main roads or the city centre. Am very happy with the
FTTC connection and don't feel a need to move.

Local BT man told me they will doing the areas with dodgy broadband
first, often rural areas further from the cabinet or exchange.

Certainly my experience. We were very late getting FTTC, and late
getting ADSL before that. Had dial-up for many years after Openreach
discontinued Home Highway.

But FTTP installed 6 March this year.

[Chris]

Post by JMB99

Post by Chris
That's a good idea. Not that this is going to happen anytime soon here.
We're in a suburban cul-de-sac and fibre installations are focused along
main roads or the city centre. Am very happy with the FTTC connection
and don't feel a need to move.

Local BT man told me they will doing the areas with dodgy broadband
first, often rural areas further from the cabinet or exchange.

Zacly! I've got quite a few years before I'm forced to change.

[Tim+]

Post by Graham J
In practise the Openreach
technician may be unwilling to do so, but you could make this easier by
installing a suitable duct through which he could run the fibre cable.

It’s what I would do. I recently laid duct in the pavement edge and under
my daughter’s gatepost to facilitate fibre installation to avoid a resin
bonded driveway (that installers wouldn’t touch).

Tim

[JMB99]

There's virtually no crawl space under the house so I've no idea how a
fibre cable would be installed. I suspect a lot of digging required.

It will be subcontracted to another company wanting to do as cheaply as
possible so I suspect they will just drill through the outside wall.

[Tim+]

Post by JMB99

There's virtually no crawl space under the house so I've no idea how a
fibre cable would be installed. I suspect a lot of digging required.

It will be subcontracted to another company wanting to do as cheaply as
possible so I suspect they will just drill through the outside wall.

Almost certainly. That said, there are ways and means to get cables under
inaccessible floors if you have a bit of ingenuity. I’ve threaded many in
my time. You will need an access hatch in the floor near where you want
the fibre to go to but electrician’s “fishing rods” which screw together
like drain rods can be slid under floors. Even if you can’t get all the
way through if enough rod starts curling up beneath the floor it can then
be “caught” using a hook on another rod.

Aldi sell them sometimes (although you can of course buy them on the net).
Very useful tool.

Tim

[Theo]

Post by Tim+

Post by JMB99

There's virtually no crawl space under the house so I've no idea how a
fibre cable would be installed. I suspect a lot of digging required.

It will be subcontracted to another company wanting to do as cheaply as
possible so I suspect they will just drill through the outside wall.

Almost certainly. That said, there are ways and means to get cables under
inaccessible floors if you have a bit of ingenuity. I’ve threaded many in
my time. You will need an access hatch in the floor near where you want
the fibre to go to but electrician’s “fishing rods” which screw together
like drain rods can be slid under floors. Even if you can’t get all the
way through if enough rod starts curling up beneath the floor it can then
be “caught” using a hook on another rod.
Aldi sell them sometimes (although you can of course buy them on the net).
Very useful tool.

If it's Openreach, they have an optional 'extended' install package for an
extra 40 pounds which includes some internal wiring (fibre or ethernet, not
sure if they'll do electrics). Whether that means fishing or just surface
conduit is a question for them, but it seems to me well worth it.

Theo

[Chris]

Post by Theo

Post by Tim+

Post by JMB99

There's virtually no crawl space under the house so I've no idea how a
fibre cable would be installed. I suspect a lot of digging required.

It will be subcontracted to another company wanting to do as cheaply as
possible so I suspect they will just drill through the outside wall.

Almost certainly. That said, there are ways and means to get cables under
inaccessible floors if you have a bit of ingenuity. I’ve threaded many in
my time. You will need an access hatch in the floor near where you want
the fibre to go to but electrician’s “fishing rods” which screw together
like drain rods can be slid under floors. Even if you can’t get all the
way through if enough rod starts curling up beneath the floor it can then
be “caught” using a hook on another rod.
Aldi sell them sometimes (although you can of course buy them on the net).
Very useful tool.

If it's Openreach, they have an optional 'extended' install package for an
extra 40 pounds which includes some internal wiring (fibre or ethernet, not
sure if they'll do electrics). Whether that means fishing or just surface
conduit is a question for them, but it seems to me well worth it.

Indeed, that's surprisingly well priced.

[bert]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Graham J
But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
by 2025 as threatened by Openreach. It will be a disaster, mainly
because the public has not been properly informed. Listen to any Radio
4 consumer program.

Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I
even kept my old landline phone number.
Rod.

I have 2 landline phones, dect base station in the kitchen and replica
dial handset in the living room (for power failure use)/ Current FTTC
termination point is upstairs in bedroom converted to study with router
next to it. I have some ethernet wiring to other parts of the house to
give better speeds. So it isn't a simple matter of plugging my phone to
a new socket, it would require the extension wiring in. I've not seen
anyone quote a ring no for FTTP VOIP adapter.
We also use sms text over the landline.

[David Wade]

Post by bert

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Graham J
But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
by 2025 as threatened by Openreach.  It will be a disaster, mainly
because the public has not been properly informed.  Listen to any Radio
4 consumer program.

Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I
even kept my old landline phone number.
Rod.

I have 2 landline phones, dect base station in the kitchen and replica
dial handset in the living room (for power failure use)/ Current FTTC
termination point is upstairs in bedroom converted to study with router
next to it.

Then start planning now. They will only install the ONT on the ground
floor. They expect the router to be co-located, but can do an enhanced
insatll.

Post by bert
I have some ethernet wiring to other parts of the house to
give better speeds. So it isn't a simple matter of plugging my phone to
a new socket, it would require the extension wiring in. I've not seen
anyone quote a ring no for FTTP VOIP adapter.

It should be the same as a BT voice line. They charge the same...

Post by bert
We also use sms text over the landline.

that still works the same, assuming you chose to pay the usary amount BT
charge for their locked down VOIP.

[Andy Burns]

They will only install the ONT on the ground floor.

Except where they don't [FX: cue Bob Eager]

[Bob Eager]

Post by Andy Burns

They will only install the ONT on the ground floor.

Except where they don't [FX: cue Bob Eager]

Indeed! I was very lucky. But it was much less work for him.

[Graham J]

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Andy Burns

They will only install the ONT on the ground floor.

Except where they don't [FX: cue Bob Eager]

Indeed! I was very lucky. But it was much less work for him.

Normally there is a fibre splice somewhere between the incoming fibre
and the fibre runing to the ONT. It is this that Openreach want to have
at ground level, so that the splice can be re-made as necessary without
the inconvenience and difficulty of working up a ladder.

[David Wade]

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Andy Burns

They will only install the ONT on the ground floor.

Except where they don't [FX: cue Bob Eager]

Indeed! I was very lucky. But it was much less work for him.

Do you have an external splice. Current practice is to fit an external
splice at ground level, so this means a high level entry can now never
be "less work"

Dave

[Bob Eager]

Post by David Wade

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Andy Burns

They will only install the ONT on the ground floor.

Except where they don't [FX: cue Bob Eager]

Indeed! I was very lucky. But it was much less work for him.

Do you have an external splice. Current practice is to fit an external
splice at ground level, so this means a high level entry can now never
be "less work"

No. He brought the overhead fibre straight through the wall (the entry
point is about 2 metres directly below the attachment to the soffit) and
did an internal splice in a very small box fitted right over the entry
hole. There is about 10cm of internal fibre going to the ONT next to it.

I know this is not how it's meant to be, but I'm not complaining. It's
very neat. Yes, I'll have to be at home if there are problems, but...

I did surprise him a bit. He fitted the ONT and asked where the nearest
mains socket was; I pointed to the socket at floor level vertically below
the ONT. Then he asked how far away th router was. I pointed to the loose
cable hanging next to the ONT, labelled 'ONT'. Router was live and it was
all good.

[David Wade]

Post by Bob Eager

Post by David Wade

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Andy Burns

They will only install the ONT on the ground floor.

Except where they don't [FX: cue Bob Eager]

Indeed! I was very lucky. But it was much less work for him.

Do you have an external splice. Current practice is to fit an external
splice at ground level, so this means a high level entry can now never
be "less work"

No. He brought the overhead fibre straight through the wall (the entry
point is about 2 metres directly below the attachment to the soffit) and
did an internal splice in a very small box fitted right over the entry
hole. There is about 10cm of internal fibre going to the ONT next to it.
I know this is not how it's meant to be, but I'm not complaining. It's
very neat. Yes, I'll have to be at home if there are problems, but...
I did surprise him a bit. He fitted the ONT and asked where the nearest
mains socket was; I pointed to the socket at floor level vertically below
the ONT. Then he asked how far away th router was. I pointed to the loose
cable hanging next to the ONT, labelled 'ONT'. Router was live and it was
all good.

Was this some time ago? I know several have asked about this arrangement
recently and were all told "no, it must be at ground level"...

Dave

[David Rance]

Post by Bob Eager

Post by David Wade

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Andy Burns

They will only install the ONT on the ground floor.

Except where they don't [FX: cue Bob Eager]

Indeed! I was very lucky. But it was much less work for him.

Do you have an external splice. Current practice is to fit an external
splice at ground level, so this means a high level entry can now never
be "less work"

No. He brought the overhead fibre straight through the wall (the entry
point is about 2 metres directly below the attachment to the soffit) and
did an internal splice in a very small box fitted right over the entry
hole. There is about 10cm of internal fibre going to the ONT next to it.
I know this is not how it's meant to be, but I'm not complaining.

?? But that's exactly how mine was done a couple of weeks ago and I
thought that was normal.

David

[Andy Burns]

Post by David Rance

Post by Bob Eager
He brought the overhead fibre straight through the wall (the entry
point is about 2 metres directly below the attachment to the soffit) and
did an internal splice in a very small box fitted right over the entry
hole. There is about 10cm of internal fibre going to the ONT next to it.
I know this is not how it's meant to be, but I'm not complaining.

?? But that's exactly how mine was done a couple of weeks ago and I
thought that was normal.

There 'should' be an external junction box at ground level, so that in
future they can access it without ladders, and without requiring you to
let them into your property ...

<https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist>

[David Rance]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by David Rance

Post by Bob Eager
He brought the overhead fibre straight through the wall (the entry
point is about 2 metres directly below the attachment to the soffit) and
did an internal splice in a very small box fitted right over the entry
hole. There is about 10cm of internal fibre going to the ONT next to it.
I know this is not how it's meant to be, but I'm not complaining.

?? But that's exactly how mine was done a couple of weeks ago and I
thought that was normal.

There 'should' be an external junction box at ground level, so that in
future they can access it without ladders, and without requiring you to
let them into your property ...

There *is* a box covering where the cable enters the property but all it
does is cover the hole in the wall.

Post by Andy Burns
<https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/full-fibre-broadband-install
ation-checklist>

Hmm ... it was done by Citifibre and not OR!

David

[Andy Burns]

Post by David Rance
it was done by Citifibre and not OR!

All bets are off then ...

[David Wade]

Post by David Rance

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Bob Eager
He brought the overhead fibre straight through the wall (the entry
point is about 2 metres directly below the attachment to the soffit) and
did an internal splice in a very small box fitted right over the entry
hole. There is about 10cm of internal fibre going to the ONT next to it.
I know this is not how it's meant to be, but I'm not complaining.

 ?? But that's exactly how mine was done a couple of weeks ago and I
thought that was normal.

There 'should' be an external junction box at ground level, so that in
future they can access it without ladders, and without requiring you
to let them into your property ...

There *is* a box covering where the cable enters the property but all it
does is cover the hole in the wall.

Post by Andy Burns
<https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/full-fibre-broadband-install
ation-checklist>

Hmm ... it was done by Citifibre and not OR!

They have their own rules, an indeed their own offerings which are AFAIK
symmetric so same up and down speeds..

Post by David Rance
David

Dave

[David Rance]

Post by David Wade

Post by David Rance

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Bob Eager
He brought the overhead fibre straight through the wall (the entry
point is about 2 metres directly below the attachment to the soffit) and
did an internal splice in a very small box fitted right over the entry
hole. There is about 10cm of internal fibre going to the ONT next
it.
I know this is not how it's meant to be, but I'm not complaining.

 ?? But that's exactly how mine was done a couple of weeks ago and
I thought that was normal.

There 'should' be an external junction box at ground level, so that
in future they can access it without ladders, and without requiring
you to let them into your property ...

There *is* a box covering where the cable enters the property but
all it does is cover the hole in the wall.

Post by Andy Burns
<https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/full-fibre-broadband-install
ation-checklist>

Hmm ... it was done by Citifibre and not OR!

They have their own rules, an indeed their own offerings which are
AFAIK symmetric so same up and down speeds..

Yes, Mine is symmetric. Isn't that the same for the others?

David

[Bob Eager]

Post by David Rance

Post by David Wade

Post by David Rance

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Bob Eager
He brought the overhead fibre straight through the wall (the entry
point is about 2 metres directly below the attachment to the soffit) and
did an internal splice in a very small box fitted right over the
entry hole. There is about 10cm of internal fibre going to the ONT
next
it.
I know this is not how it's meant to be, but I'm not complaining.

 ?? But that's exactly how mine was done a couple of weeks ago and
I thought that was normal.

There 'should' be an external junction box at ground level, so that
in future they can access it without ladders, and without requiring
you to let them into your property ...

There *is* a box covering where the cable enters the property but
all it does is cover the hole in the wall.

Post by Andy Burns
<https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/full-fibre-broadband-

install

Post by David Rance

Post by David Wade

Post by David Rance

Post by Andy Burns
ation-checklist>

Hmm ... it was done by Citifibre and not OR!

They have their own rules, an indeed their own offerings which are AFAIK
symmetric so same up and down speeds..

Yes, Mine is symmetric. Isn't that the same for the others?

The OpenReach offering is asymmetric. I have the 300/50 product. Adequate
download, but I wanted 50 Mb/s up.

[David Wade]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by David Rance

Post by David Wade

Post by David Rance

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Bob Eager
He brought the overhead fibre straight through the wall (the entry
point is about 2 metres directly below the attachment to the soffit) and
did an internal splice in a very small box fitted right over the
entry hole. There is about 10cm of internal fibre going to the ONT
next
it.
I know this is not how it's meant to be, but I'm not complaining.

 ?? But that's exactly how mine was done a couple of weeks ago and
I thought that was normal.

There 'should' be an external junction box at ground level, so that
in future they can access it without ladders, and without requiring
you to let them into your property ...

There *is* a box covering where the cable enters the property but
all it does is cover the hole in the wall.

Post by Andy Burns
<https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/full-fibre-broadband-

install

Post by David Rance

Post by David Wade

Post by David Rance

Post by Andy Burns
ation-checklist>

Hmm ... it was done by Citifibre and not OR!

They have their own rules, an indeed their own offerings which are AFAIK
symmetric so same up and down speeds..

Yes, Mine is symmetric. Isn't that the same for the others?

The OpenReach offering is asymmetric. I have the 300/50 product. Adequate
download, but I wanted 50 Mb/s up.

I have the 500/73 for the same reason. I build web sites and want to
upload software releases etc...

Dave

[Bob Eager]

Post by David Wade

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by David Rance

Post by David Wade

Post by David Rance

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Bob Eager
He brought the overhead fibre straight through the wall (the
entry point is about 2 metres directly below the attachment to
the soffit) and did an internal splice in a very small box fitted
right over the entry hole. There is about 10cm of internal fibre
going to the ONT next it.
I know this is not how it's meant to be, but I'm not complaining.

 ?? But that's exactly how mine was done a couple of weeks ago
 and
I thought that was normal.

There 'should' be an external junction box at ground level, so that
in future they can access it without ladders, and without requiring
you to let them into your property ...

There *is* a box covering where the cable enters the property but
all it does is cover the hole in the wall.

Post by Andy Burns
<https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/full-fibre-broadband-

install

Post by David Rance

Post by David Wade

Post by David Rance

Post by Andy Burns
ation-checklist>

Hmm ... it was done by Citifibre and not OR!

They have their own rules, an indeed their own offerings which are
AFAIK symmetric so same up and down speeds..

Yes, Mine is symmetric. Isn't that the same for the others?

The OpenReach offering is asymmetric. I have the 300/50 product.
Adequate download, but I wanted 50 Mb/s up.

I have the 500/73 for the same reason. I build web sites and want to
upload software releases etc...

I want to run a local jitsi server. I managed four users with only 2.5Mb/
s, so I should be OK - I rarely have more than 15 people!

[bert]

Post by David Wade

Post by bert

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Graham J
But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
by 2025 as threatened by Openreach.  It will be a disaster, mainly
because the public has not been properly informed.  Listen to any Radio
4 consumer program.

Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I
even kept my old landline phone number.
Rod.

I have 2 landline phones, dect base station in the kitchen and
replica dial handset in the living room (for power failure use)/
Current FTTC termination point is upstairs in bedroom converted to
study with router next to it.

Then start planning now. They will only install the ONT on the ground
floor. They expect the router to be co-located, but can do an enhanced
insatll.

Post by bert
I have some ethernet wiring to other parts of the house to give
better speeds. So it isn't a simple matter of plugging my phone to a
new socket, it would require the extension wiring in. I've not seen
anyone quote a ring no for FTTP VOIP adapter.

It should be the same as a BT voice line. They charge the same...

Post by bert
We also use sms text over the landline.

that still works the same, assuming you chose to pay the usary amount
BT charge for their locked down VOIP.

You're the 1st person whose been able to answer that question.
Thank you. SWMBO will be pleased.

[Marco Moock]

Post by Graham J
Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times
per day taking a minute to do so each time.

ADSL can use up to 8 MBit/s in downstream and ADSL2+ up to 24 if the
DSLAM supports it and the cable isn't too long.
In Germany, many rural households only get 2MBit/s and have to use VoIP
- all carriers (except some very small) have stopped providing POTS or
ISDN. It works if QoS is enabled, so the voice traffic has priority for
upload.

Post by Graham J
VDSL is better if the green cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than
that and you get poor speeds and variable reliability. A re-sync
still takes about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

ADSL and VDSL can be synchron for months and the PPP connection can
also be established for that time - without a problem.

The problem are ISP that intentionally disconnect it to annoy the
customers and make some people paying money for not doing that.

I have VDSL without intentional disconnects, with static IPv4 and a
static /48 IPv6 net.
VoIP works fine.

[Graham J]

Post by Marco Moock

Post by Graham J
Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times
per day taking a minute to do so each time.

ADSL can use up to 8 MBit/s in downstream and ADSL2+ up to 24 if the
DSLAM supports it and the cable isn't too long.
In Germany, many rural households only get 2MBit/s and have to use VoIP
- all carriers (except some very small) have stopped providing POTS or
ISDN. It works if QoS is enabled, so the voice traffic has priority for
upload.

QoS doesn't help if the line loses sync. Sadly, rural ADSL is very
susceptible to all sorts of interference, and this is what causes the
re-sync. For emails and web browsing it's just about tolerable, but
it's no good for VoIP.

Post by Marco Moock

Post by Graham J
VDSL is better if the green cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than
that and you get poor speeds and variable reliability. A re-sync
still takes about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

ADSL and VDSL can be synchron for months and the PPP connection can
also be established for that time - without a problem.

This is very rare. I have monitored about 20 customers with a mix of
ADSL and VDSL and those in rural locations see re-syncs every few days
at almost any time of day. City centre customers see a more reliable
service and the failures here are PPP disconnections and reconnections
rather than the modem re-synchronising.

My own FTTP service has dropped its PPP connection 4 times since being
installed on 6 March this year. The breaks lasted from 2 seconds to 11
seconds. My log shows the breaks starting as follows:

<158>Apr 13 15:47:25 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)
<158>May 31 08:46:28 V2860n: PPP Closed : Remote Terminating (PPPoE)
<158>Jun 30 21:39:10 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)
<158>Aug 23 17:51:09 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)

Probably an ongoing VoIP call would have tolerated the 2-second break.

[snip]

[Marco Moock]

Post by Graham J

Post by Marco Moock

Post by Graham J
Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several
times per day taking a minute to do so each time.

ADSL can use up to 8 MBit/s in downstream and ADSL2+ up to 24 if the
DSLAM supports it and the cable isn't too long.
In Germany, many rural households only get 2MBit/s and have to use VoIP
- all carriers (except some very small) have stopped providing POTS
or ISDN. It works if QoS is enabled, so the voice traffic has
priority for upload.

QoS doesn't help if the line loses sync. Sadly, rural ADSL is very
susceptible to all sorts of interference, and this is what causes the
re-sync. For emails and web browsing it's just about tolerable, but
it's no good for VoIP.

We had ADSL for years and not such problems, but the lines are buried
and not in the air.

Post by Graham J

Post by Marco Moock

Post by Graham J
VDSL is better if the green cabinet is less than about 100 metres
away, but further than
that and you get poor speeds and variable reliability. A re-sync
still takes about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

ADSL and VDSL can be synchron for months and the PPP connection can
also be established for that time - without a problem.

This is very rare. I have monitored about 20 customers with a mix of
ADSL and VDSL and those in rural locations see re-syncs every few
days at almost any time of day. City centre customers see a more
reliable service and the failures here are PPP disconnections and
reconnections rather than the modem re-synchronising.

Then this isn't DSL, it is PPP and many ISP intentionally disconnect
PPP after some days. There is no technical reason to do so.

Post by Graham J
My own FTTP service has dropped its PPP connection 4 times since
being installed on 6 March this year. The breaks lasted from 2
<158>Apr 13 15:47:25 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)
<158>May 31 08:46:28 V2860n: PPP Closed : Remote Terminating (PPPoE)
<158>Jun 30 21:39:10 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)
<158>Aug 23 17:51:09 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)
Probably an ongoing VoIP call would have tolerated the 2-second break.

Then tell that your ISP and request to no intentionally terminate the
PPP session.
There is no technical reason to do so. Ask them for the technical
reason if they tell you that it is normal to disconnect it.

And yes I know, there are many nasty ISPs on the market that love to
annoy private customers.

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by MikeS
BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection. Most
of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.

Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times per
day taking a minute to do so each time.  VDSL is better if the green
cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than that and you
get poor speeds and variable reliability.  A re-sync still takes about a
minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

I'm over 800m from my green cabinet, and get 40Mbps down, 8Mbps up.
I've not experiences any resyncs, and can't spot any in the router PPP log
going back to April (A few power failures since then though).

I've only had BT digital voice for 3 weeks, but no problems there.

[Graham J]

Nick Finnigan wrote:

[snip]

 I'm over 800m from my green cabinet, and get 40Mbps down,  8Mbps up.
I've not experiences any resyncs, and can't spot any in the router PPP
log going back to April (A few power failures since then though).
 I've only had BT digital voice for 3 weeks, but no problems there.

My green cabinet is 1.1km away. Speed about 27Mbits/sec down, about
2.7Mbits/sec up. Average up-time about a day.

Happily I don't need it any more. Have had FTTP since 6 March.

[MikeS]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by MikeS
BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection.
Most of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.

Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times per
day taking a minute to do so each time.  VDSL is better if the green
cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than that and
you get poor speeds and variable reliability.  A re-sync still takes
about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

As I said, you are perpetuating a myth.

My ADSL is reliable, does NOT "re-sync several times per day taking a
minute to do so each time", download is consistently 17Mbits/sec, and in
any case 2Mbits/sec would be more than sufficient for VoIP.

[Graham J]

MikeS wrote:

[snip]

Post by MikeS
My ADSL is reliable, does NOT "re-sync several times per day taking a
minute to do so each time", download is consistently 17Mbits/sec, and in
any case 2Mbits/sec would be more than sufficient for VoIP.

Not everybody is as lucky as you.

[Brian Gregory]

Post by MikeS

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by MikeS
BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection.
Most of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.

Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times
per day taking a minute to do so each time.  VDSL is better if the
green cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than
that and you get poor speeds and variable reliability.  A re-sync
still takes about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

As I said, you are perpetuating a myth.
My ADSL is reliable, does NOT "re-sync several times per day taking a
minute to do so each time", download is consistently 17Mbits/sec, and in
any case 2Mbits/sec would be more than sufficient for VoIP.

That was my experience too. But there is much more chance of being unlucky.

Also I suspect that those whose phone line arrives above ground on
telegraph poles will have more, possibly many more, problems than those,
like me, where it is underground all the way to the exchange or FTTC
cabinet.

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Brian Gregory
Also I suspect that those whose phone line arrives above ground on
telegraph poles will have more, possibly many more, problems than those,
like me, where it is underground all the way to the exchange or FTTC
cabinet.

Then your suspicions would be incorrect. We've been here 11 years, and
our house is about 500m from the cabinet, with supply via overhead
wires. I changed about 4 years ago from ADSL2 to FTTC. Both have been
fine. The only times there have been problems it was nothing to do with
the overhead wire. A car took out the cabinet and as the doors wouldn't
close, the DSLAM had to be turned off since the mains wires were
accessible. Other times it was problems Zen had (and those are extremely
rare). I got around 10Mb with ADSL2, and have about 30Mb with FTTC. At
our previous house (in an area at least 12 years younger than this one,
but further from the exchange) on ADSL2 I was lucky to get 8Mb, and
several times the connection speed dropped. All the wiring was
underground and once had to be sorted out when water got into it.

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Brian Gregory
Also I suspect that those whose phone line arrives above ground on
telegraph poles will have more, possibly many more, problems than those,
like me, where it is underground all the way to the exchange or FTTC
cabinet.

Then your suspicions would be incorrect. We've been here 11 years, and
our house is about 500m from the cabinet, with supply via overhead
wires. I changed about 4 years ago from ADSL2 to FTTC. Both have been
fine.

Similarly here. No problems for many years with the overhead feed when
it was copper cable, and none so far with the fibre (though admittedly
the fibre hasn't been there so long). I would have thought that
flexing and tugging by the wind over many years would have more of an
adverse effect on fibre, which is made of glass, but this is what
they're installing everywhere so I guess they must have established
that it's up to the task.

Rod.

[Graham J]

Brian Gregory wrote:

[snip]

Post by Brian Gregory
That was my experience too. But there is much more chance of being unlucky.
Also I suspect that those whose phone line arrives above ground on
telegraph poles will have more, possibly many more, problems than those,
like me, where it is underground all the way to the exchange or FTTC
cabinet.

One of my unlucky customers with ADSL had an underground feed all the
way to the exchange; under the road at one point. Still intermittent -
tended to fail around 5 am most days. Openreach engineer (after several
visits) suggested that a heavy lorry travelling over that section of
road caused an intermittent break in the cable.

Failures did not occur on bank holidays.

I was never able to persuade the customer to get up early to watch the
traffic to see if the lorry theory made sense.

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by MikeS
BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection. Most
of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.

Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times per
day taking a minute to do so each time. VDSL is better if the green
cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than that and
you get poor speeds and variable reliability. A re-sync still takes
about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!
I've noticed that FTTP is being rolled out in populated rural areas
where copper broadband is unreliable. In less populated areas where
copper broadband is effectively not available there's no evidence of
fibre being installed.
But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
by 2025 as threatened by Openreach. It will be a disaster, mainly
because the public has not been properly informed. Listen to any Radio
4 consumer program.

Almost complete bollocks.

Original ADSL and, possibly ADSLMax might have been speed limited and
generally unreliable. But 2 and 2+ are being used successfully in many
places for VOIP, sometimes supporting many calls.

FTTC works well over much longer distances than 100m. Yes, it depends
on cable quality.

[Graham J]

Rupert Moss-Eccardt wrote:

[snip]

Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Almost complete bollocks.
Original ADSL and, possibly ADSLMax might have been speed limited and
generally unreliable. But 2 and 2+ are being used successfully in many
places for VOIP, sometimes supporting many calls.
FTTC works well over much longer distances than 100m. Yes, it depends
on cable quality.

Your ADSL or VDSL may work and be 100% reliable. Some other people may
also be lucky in this respect.

But when I ran a small business it was me that people used to come to in
order to get reliability issues with their broadband connections
resolved. So I would see the people that suffered unreliability.
Changing the ISP to A&A or Zen would usually help, but in reality only
because these ISPs have the ability to get Openreach to send out
technicians to actually investigate. Changing the router would help,
but only because the routers I supplied (usually Draytek) provided
remote management and logging so I could monitor performance.

Sometimes - after repeated visits by Openreach techicians - the line
quality would be improved to a level which would allow for emails and
web browsing. In order to be sure that any improvement was permanent I
would monitor those lines using <https://f8lure.mouselike.org/auth.asp>
and is was clear that some connections were still not very reliable.

So these are the people who would most benefit from FTTP.

[John Rumm]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by MikeS
BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection.
Most of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.

Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.

That does not really make any sense to me... I have plenty of customers
who have all their business critical voice traffic over VoIP in offices
serviced by FTTC / SoGEA connections.

Post by Graham J
Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times per
day taking a minute to do so each time.

Who's ADSL though?

Sure ADSL can be poor on long lines, but can give reliable service in
the right circumstances, and a speeds more than adequate for VoIP.

My ADSL service limps along at 1.5 to 2 Mbps down, 800k up. However it
is a stable connection and will work for weeks at a time without a
complete line drop.

Post by Graham J
VDSL is better if the green
cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than that and
you get poor speeds and variable reliability.

You will get the highest rates at lines distances under 400m, however
you can still get 20/4 at over 1km.

VoIP is not a high bandwidth application (it can run quite acceptably
over dialup). GSM phones managed ok ish voice quality on 13 kbps.

What matters more is the router having proper quality of service and
bandwidth management to ensure that the VoIP traffic never gets swamped
by other applications.

Post by Graham J
A re-sync still takes
about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

Connection stability is a different problem from speed or latency or
jitter. Plenty of VDSL connections will have up times measured in weeks
or months.

Post by Graham J
I've noticed that FTTP is being rolled out in populated rural areas
where copper broadband is unreliable. In less populated areas where
copper broadband is effectively not available there's no evidence of
fibre being installed.

ISTM that openreach had been prioritising FTTP in cases where they can't
(and could never) meet their minimum broadband performance requirements
using ADSL. Many rural settings don't have any street cabinet furniture,
so the choice would be run fibre 99% of the way, install street cabinets
for VDSL, and then connect that, or just do fibre 100% of the way and do
without the street cabinets and their power requirements.

It is fairly obvious that going for an inferior experience, at massive
extra expense makes no sense, so FTTP wins.

However FTTC made lots of sense in areas with the infrastructure already
in place, and it was an easy upgrade at the time.

Post by Graham J
But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
by 2025 as threatened by Openreach.  It will be a disaster, mainly
because the public has not been properly informed.  Listen to any Radio
4 consumer program.

Time will tell, but I expect for many it will be an almost invisible
changeover.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Graham J]

Post by John Rumm

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by MikeS
BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection.
Most of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.

Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.

That does not really make any sense to me... I have plenty of customers
who have all their business critical voice traffic over VoIP in offices
serviced by FTTC / SoGEA connections.

By contrast, in my small business I had about 50 customers. Of them,
certainly 10 suffered unreliable ADSL or VDSL - a re-sync every couple
of days, and more during thunderstorms. One specifically suffered a
4-day outage when the nearby green cabinet developed a fault which
Openreach could not fix.

[Andy Burns]

in my small business I had about 50 customers.  Of them, certainly 10
suffered unreliable ADSL or VDSL

As I recall, your customers tended to be farmers in relatively remote
locations? I know they need reliable broadband as much as anyone else,
but satellite might be an answer for them, geostationary would probably
be too high latency for VoIP but LEO ought to work.

[Graham J]

Post by Andy Burns

in my small business I had about 50 customers.  Of them, certainly 10
suffered unreliable ADSL or VDSL

As I recall, your customers tended to be farmers in relatively remote
locations?  I know they need reliable broadband as much as anyone else,
but satellite might be an answer for them, geostationary would probably
be too high latency for VoIP but LEO ought to work.

Indeed yes. One customer site was a quarry in the middle of nowhere.
Electricity but no phone line! Used Tooway satellite - which supported
VoIP despite the latency.

[JMB99]

Post by Andy Burns
As I recall, your customers tended to be farmers in relatively remote
locations?  I know they need reliable broadband as much as anyone else,
but satellite might be an answer for them, geostationary would probably
be too high latency for VoIP but LEO ought to work.

I can remember many years ago satellite being promoted for more remote
users, I think a farmer I knew used it.

Even Airwave use satellite for some of their sites because no
terrestrial broadband available.

[John Rumm]

Post by John Rumm

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by MikeS
BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue*
phone service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply
customers with a digital voice service using the existing copper
connection. Most of them are probably already using the copper for
broadband anyway.

Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.

That does not really make any sense to me... I have plenty of
customers who have all their business critical voice traffic over VoIP
in offices serviced by FTTC / SoGEA connections.

By contrast, in my small business I had about 50 customers.  Of them,
certainly 10 suffered unreliable ADSL or VDSL - a re-sync every couple
of days, and more during thunderstorms.

And what was their analogue voice quality like, and how often did that fail?

One specifically suffered a
4-day outage when the nearby green cabinet developed a fault which
Openreach could not fix.

My FTTP suffered a week's outage when a local farmer decided to flail
the fibre while hedge cutting! Nothing is perfect.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Graham J]

John Rumm wrote:

[snip]

Post by John Rumm

By contrast, in my small business I had about 50 customers.  Of them,
certainly 10 suffered unreliable ADSL or VDSL - a re-sync every couple
of days, and more during thunderstorms.

And what was their analogue voice quality like, and how often did that fail?

Analog voice quality generally good - not noisy. Even during a
thunderstorm all that the user would notice was a click.

Given that there is no way to monitor it, I could not identify whether
it ever failed. But nobody ever complained of interrupted phone calls.

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Jeff Gaines
Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
going live.
Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
copper now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.
I know copper will disappear eventually but will BT just turn it off
especially since they don't have a fibre offering of their own?

BT want to get rid of the old telephone exchange equipment, but I'm sure
they'll be happy to continue to sell you ADSL or FTTC with, if you want
it, VoIP.

[Marco Moock]

Post by Brian Gregory
BT want to get rid of the old telephone exchange equipment, but I'm
sure they'll be happy to continue to sell you ADSL or FTTC with, if
you want it, VoIP.

It will be switched off in 2025.
https://help.business.bt.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/55133/~/the-pstn-and-isdn-switch-off%3A-what-it-means-for-you

Do you know which telephone exchanges BT uses?

Alcatel?

Siemens EWSD?

[Chris]

Post by Marco Moock

Post by Brian Gregory
BT want to get rid of the old telephone exchange equipment, but I'm
sure they'll be happy to continue to sell you ADSL or FTTC with, if
you want it, VoIP.

It will be switched off in 2025.
https://help.business.bt.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/55133/~/the-pstn-and-isdn-switch-off%3A-what-it-means-for-you

No it won't. They're not even close to ready. It says they'll stop selling
PSTN and legacy bb this month. Lol.

A family member just started with EE/BT and they're being told 2030, iirc.

[Theo]

Post by Chris

Post by Marco Moock

Post by Brian Gregory
BT want to get rid of the old telephone exchange equipment, but I'm
sure they'll be happy to continue to sell you ADSL or FTTC with, if
you want it, VoIP.

It will be switched off in 2025.
https://help.business.bt.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/55133/~/the-pstn-and-isdn-switch-off%3A-what-it-means-for-you

No it won't. They're not even close to ready. It says they'll stop selling
PSTN and legacy bb this month. Lol.

As of 5th September they have stopped selling analogue PSTN (and ISDN etc),
and they may have stopped selling ADSL where FTTC is available.

By 2025 they plan to withdraw the analogue PSTN, and presumably anybody
renewing an ADSL contract will get moved onto FTTC if available. At that
point the exchange is defunct and can be disposed of.

Theo

[Graham J]

Theo wrote:

[snip]

Post by Theo
As of 5th September they have stopped selling analogue PSTN (and ISDN etc),
and they may have stopped selling ADSL where FTTC is available.
By 2025 they plan to withdraw the analogue PSTN, and presumably anybody
renewing an ADSL contract will get moved onto FTTC if available. At that
point the exchange is defunct and can be disposed of.

The key point is "if available".

I know of rural areas where not even ADSL is available, and others where
there is only ADSL. In these places FTTP is being talked about, but
there are no dates as yet.

If FTTC is already installed, and it's an urban location, the service is
likely to be converted to SOGEA quite soon (before the end of 2025). The
customer will be given the option of moving to "Digital Voice" or
arranging their own third party VoIP service. In these cases FTTP may
well not be installed for at least another 10 years.

[Marco Moock]

Post by Theo
By 2025 they plan to withdraw the analogue PSTN, and presumably
anybody renewing an ADSL contract will get moved onto FTTC if
available. At that point the exchange is defunct and can be disposed
of.

I think they won't dispose them. They maybe need the spare parts for
telephone exchanges in rural areas where customers still use them.

That happened in Germany with the Siemens EWSD and Alcatel S12.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Marco Moock
I think they won't dispose them. They maybe need the spare parts for
telephone exchanges in rural areas where customers still use them.

BT exchanges still use 1980s era SystemX (Marconi) and SystemY
(Ericsson) kit ...

[Theo]

Post by Marco Moock

Post by Theo
By 2025 they plan to withdraw the analogue PSTN, and presumably
anybody renewing an ADSL contract will get moved onto FTTC if
available. At that point the exchange is defunct and can be disposed
of.

I think they won't dispose them. They maybe need the spare parts for
telephone exchanges in rural areas where customers still use them.
That happened in Germany with the Siemens EWSD and Alcatel S12.

There won't be telephone exchanges in rural areas - the vast majority of
people will be on VOIP. A percentage of people will be on ADSL so will
still need the DSLAM, although they may do what they did for exchange-only
lines which was to install cabinets in the street outside the building.
But most of those will be on VOIP so no need for PSTN switching equipment.

A handful of people will have a line so bad it's voice-only, but it would be
easier to FTTP them up to make that problem go away, or just give them a
mobile phone (if they have signal).

Then the exchange building is empty and can be handed back to Telereal
Trillium so that Openreach can stop paying them rent.

Theo

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Theo
Then the exchange building is empty and can be handed back to
Telereal Trillium so that Openreach can stop paying them rent.

The first contract break is not until December 2031, when Openreach plans to
leave 103 expensive exchanges, with 4,400 more over the next 10 years, leaving
about 1,000.

Trials of exit exchange start in March 2024 when the Deddinton exchange will
close, followed by Kenton Road and three Northern Ireland exchanges a few
months later, all these exchanges are full fibre already.

Angus

[Andy Burns]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
The first contract break is not until December 2031

I've seen various ex-BT building go up for sale by trillium, so
presumably there are early get-out options too?

[JMB99]

Post by Andy Burns
I've seen various ex-BT building go up for sale by trillium, so
presumably there are early get-out options too?

I keep wondering when I pass the local TEC. There have been rebuilding
it, I have wondered if it so they can eventually free up the town centre
exchange building and sell it.

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Andy Burns
I've seen various ex-BT building go up for sale by trillium, so
presumably there are early get-out options too?

Sorry, no idea, my information is from an Openreach planning document a couple
of years ago. But not all buildings were sold.

There is a list of the 1,000 odd exchanges that currently terminate all FTTC
and FTTP fibres which are mostly the ones being kept, except for some that are
presumably to expensive to rent.

In Croydon they will all close except the tower built in seventies for System X,
that replaced the old Strowger exchange.

Angus

[JMB99]

Post by Theo
A handful of people will have a line so bad it's voice-only, but it
would be easier to FTTP them up to make that problem go away, or just
give them a mobile phone (if they have signal).

They did that with a friend some years ago, he had lots of problems with
line at home (might have been overhead).

So just gave him fibre to his house at no extra cost.