PSTN to Digital - timescales

[[e-mail]]

Can I check with the sages on this group whether my understanding of the timing of the digital changeover is correct?

a) All of the UK is due to have copper PSTN lines converted to digital working by December 2025.

b) After that point, exchanges that are not handover points will become redundant and will presumably be disposed of

c) As of September 2023, Openreach have not been accepting new orders for PSTN, so anyone moving home has to accept a digital circuit, whatever ISP they choose (even if they are in an "At Risk" group, eg no mobile signal, and even if their ISP is ignoring Ofcom guidelines and failing to offer a "solution" to the 999 problem such as battery backup)

d) Between now and December 2025, it is up to individual ISPs to decide their changeover programme for existing PSTN customers. So BT may change over their easy-to-convert PSTN customers on an exchange in late 2023, but are OK to delay "At Risk" customers on that exchange until 2025 if they wish. And other ISPs might choose to wait to convert customers on the same exchange until late 2025.

e) There is no requirement on when an ISP starts changing existing customers from PSTN to digital - the only constraint on how fast they plan the changover is how many customer service staff they have to handle queries and problems. So an ISP could do nothing to change people over until mid-2025 if they thought they could handle the rush over the remaining six months.

[[e-mail]]

Post by ***@gmail.com
Can I check with the sages on this group whether my understanding of the timing of the digital changeover is correct?
a) All of the UK is due to have copper PSTN lines converted to digital working by December 2025.

In principle

Post by ***@gmail.com
b) After that point, exchanges that are not handover points will become redundant and will presumably be disposed of

Probably.

Post by ***@gmail.com
c) As of September 2023, Openreach have not been accepting new orders for PSTN, so anyone moving home has to accept a digital circuit, whatever ISP they choose (even if they are in an "At Risk" group, eg no mobile signal, and even if their ISP is ignoring Ofcom guidelines and failing to offer a "solution" to the 999 problem such as battery backup)

AIUI

Post by ***@gmail.com
d) Between now and December 2025, it is up to individual ISPs to decide their changeover programme for existing PSTN customers. So BT may change over their easy-to-convert PSTN customers on an exchange in late 2023, but are OK to delay "At Risk" customers on that exchange until 2025 if they wish. And other ISPs might choose to wait to convert customers on the same exchange until late 2025.

Dunno.

Post by ***@gmail.com
e) There is no requirement on when an ISP starts changing existing customers from PSTN to digital - the only constraint on how fast they plan the changover is how many customer service staff they have to handle queries and problems. So an ISP could do nothing to change people over until mid-2025 if they thought they could handle the rush over the remaining six months.

Only service providers using BT Wholesale / Openreach will need to do this. SP's with their own infrastructure (e.g. Virgin) can do what they like.

[Chris Green]

Post by ***@gmail.com
Can I check with the sages on this group whether my understanding of the
timing of the digital changeover is correct?
a) All of the UK is due to have copper PSTN lines converted to digital working by December 2025.
b) After that point, exchanges that are not handover points will become
redundant and will presumably be disposed of
c) As of September 2023, Openreach have not been accepting new orders for
PSTN, so anyone moving home has to accept a digital circuit, whatever ISP
they choose (even if they are in an "At Risk" group, eg no mobile signal,
and even if their ISP is ignoring Ofcom guidelines and failing to offer
a "solution" to the 999 problem such as battery backup)
d) Between now and December 2025, it is up to individual ISPs to decide
their changeover programme for existing PSTN customers. So BT may change
over their easy-to-convert PSTN customers on an exchange in late 2023,
but are OK to delay "At Risk" customers on that exchange until 2025 if
they wish. And other ISPs might choose to wait to convert customers on
the same exchange until late 2025.
e) There is no requirement on when an ISP starts changing existing customers
from PSTN to digital - the only constraint on how fast they plan the changover
is how many customer service staff they have to handle queries and problems.
So an ISP could do nothing to change people over until mid-2025 if they
thought they could handle the rush over the remaining six months.

How does the above actually work when one is on FTTC? We have two
lines, both PlusNet at the moment, both FTTC, one is used by an 'at
risk' customer (my M-I-L).

Currently both lines have POTS actually provided by DECT phones though
we do have a 'real' POTS phone on one for when we have the occasional
(not all that uncommon) power outage.

We've not had any sort of communication from PlusNet about the coming
changes.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Chris Green

Post by ***@gmail.com
Can I check with the sages on this group whether my understanding of the
timing of the digital changeover is correct?
a) All of the UK is due to have copper PSTN lines converted to digital working by December 2025.
b) After that point, exchanges that are not handover points will become
redundant and will presumably be disposed of
c) As of September 2023, Openreach have not been accepting new orders for
PSTN, so anyone moving home has to accept a digital circuit, whatever ISP
they choose (even if they are in an "At Risk" group, eg no mobile signal,
and even if their ISP is ignoring Ofcom guidelines and failing to offer
a "solution" to the 999 problem such as battery backup)
d) Between now and December 2025, it is up to individual ISPs to decide
their changeover programme for existing PSTN customers. So BT may change
over their easy-to-convert PSTN customers on an exchange in late 2023,
but are OK to delay "At Risk" customers on that exchange until 2025 if
they wish. And other ISPs might choose to wait to convert customers on
the same exchange until late 2025.
e) There is no requirement on when an ISP starts changing existing customers
from PSTN to digital - the only constraint on how fast they plan the changover
is how many customer service staff they have to handle queries and problems.
So an ISP could do nothing to change people over until mid-2025 if they
thought they could handle the rush over the remaining six months.

How does the above actually work when one is on FTTC? We have two
lines, both PlusNet at the moment, both FTTC, one is used by an 'at
risk' customer (my M-I-L).
Currently both lines have POTS actually provided by DECT phones though
we do have a 'real' POTS phone on one for when we have the occasional
(not all that uncommon) power outage.
We've not had any sort of communication from PlusNet about the coming
changes.

When do the contracts expire ? My understanding is you remain on
PSTN/POTs until you initiate a change (notably by starting a new
contract) . If you change ISP, then that ISP (if they provide one) will
give you a DV service. You cannot now be provided with a 'fresh' PSTN
service (not since Sept 5th 2023).

However, I'm sure no ISP that offers Digital Voice/VoIP will wait until
Dec 31st 2025 to migrate their remaining punters to those services.

In PlusNet's case it's simpler. They have (or will have) no DV/VoIP
product, so it is possible if you don't renew your contract, (which
would be expensive of course) your PSTN service will run until Dec 2025,
and then be switched off.

No one other than the grown ups at Plusnet can answer that question

[Chris Green]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Chris Green

Post by ***@gmail.com
Can I check with the sages on this group whether my understanding of the
timing of the digital changeover is correct?
a) All of the UK is due to have copper PSTN lines converted to digital

working by December 2025.

Post by Chris Green

Post by ***@gmail.com
b) After that point, exchanges that are not handover points will become
redundant and will presumably be disposed of
c) As of September 2023, Openreach have not been accepting new orders for
PSTN, so anyone moving home has to accept a digital circuit, whatever ISP
they choose (even if they are in an "At Risk" group, eg no mobile signal,
and even if their ISP is ignoring Ofcom guidelines and failing to offer
a "solution" to the 999 problem such as battery backup)
d) Between now and December 2025, it is up to individual ISPs to decide
their changeover programme for existing PSTN customers. So BT may change
over their easy-to-convert PSTN customers on an exchange in late 2023,
but are OK to delay "At Risk" customers on that exchange until 2025 if
they wish. And other ISPs might choose to wait to convert customers on
the same exchange until late 2025.
e) There is no requirement on when an ISP starts changing existing customers
from PSTN to digital - the only constraint on how fast they plan the changover
is how many customer service staff they have to handle queries and problems.
So an ISP could do nothing to change people over until mid-2025 if they
thought they could handle the rush over the remaining six months.

How does the above actually work when one is on FTTC? We have two
lines, both PlusNet at the moment, both FTTC, one is used by an 'at
risk' customer (my M-I-L).
Currently both lines have POTS actually provided by DECT phones though
we do have a 'real' POTS phone on one for when we have the occasional
(not all that uncommon) power outage.
We've not had any sort of communication from PlusNet about the coming
changes.

When do the contracts expire ? My understanding is you remain on

I don't think they do! :-) One of the lines is definitely out of
contract now.

Post by ***@gmail.com
PSTN/POTs until you initiate a change (notably by starting a new
contract) . If you change ISP, then that ISP (if they provide one) will
give you a DV service. You cannot now be provided with a 'fresh' PSTN
service (not since Sept 5th 2023).
However, I'm sure no ISP that offers Digital Voice/VoIP will wait until
Dec 31st 2025 to migrate their remaining punters to those services.
In PlusNet's case it's simpler. They have (or will have) no DV/VoIP
product, so it is possible if you don't renew your contract, (which
would be expensive of course) your PSTN service will run until Dec 2025,
and then be switched off.
No one other than the grown ups at Plusnet can answer that question

[Theo]

Post by ***@gmail.com
Can I check with the sages on this group whether my understanding of the
timing of the digital changeover is correct?
a) All of the UK is due to have copper PSTN lines converted to digital
working by December 2025.

'digital' here meaning ISP-provided VOIP.

Post by ***@gmail.com
b) After that point, exchanges that are not handover points will become
redundant and will presumably be disposed of

Unless there are any remaining ADSL lines which can't get FTTC. I imagine
OR will install fibre cabinets in the street to house the ADSL DSLAMs, so
they can move their gear out of the exchange.

Post by ***@gmail.com
c) As of September 2023, Openreach have not been accepting new orders for
PSTN, so anyone moving home has to accept a digital circuit, whatever ISP
they choose (even if they are in an "At Risk" group, eg no mobile signal,
and even if their ISP is ignoring Ofcom guidelines and failing to offer a
"solution" to the 999 problem such as battery backup)

That's unclear - it seems like it is still possible to order analogue
circuits, on an exceptional basis. How exceptions are made I don't know,
but I'd guess you have to ring up the provider and ask. BT are talking
about a method where they put a VOIP ATA in the cabinet so the line itself
remains analogue, and presumably such lines will migrate to that in due
course. Not clear on the battery backup situation for that.

Post by ***@gmail.com
d) Between now and December 2025, it is up to individual ISPs to decide
their changeover programme for existing PSTN customers. So BT may change
over their easy-to-convert PSTN customers on an exchange in late 2023, but
are OK to delay "At Risk" customers on that exchange until 2025 if they
wish. And other ISPs might choose to wait to convert customers on the
same exchange until late 2025.

Presumably. Or customers are forced to change at re-contract time (eg don't
allow them to continue xDSL+PSTN service where FTTC+VOIP is available).
It's not clear what happens to customers who stay on an old contract for
years, but presumably they can be moved as started to be happening to people
in mid-contract.

Post by ***@gmail.com
e) There is no requirement on when an ISP starts changing existing
customers from PSTN to digital - the only constraint on how fast they plan
the changover is how many customer service staff they have to handle
queries and problems. So an ISP could do nothing to change people over
until mid-2025 if they thought they could handle the rush over the
remaining six months.

Since this is entirely within the ISP's world, that's up to them. In other
words, doing this transition doesn't require Openreach to send a van out,
it's just a routing change in the ISP's phone network (although ADSL->FTTC
conversions would).

Note that switching the phone calls to VOIP doesn't immediately change
anything at the Openreach end - it just means the line no longer has a
number on it. Once none of the lines have numbers on them, then OR can
decommission the exchange and the copper wires from there to the cabinet -
but that timescale is up to them. It doesn't mean the exchanges will become
vacant on 1st Jan 2026, it means OR can piecemeal shut things down whenever
they like after that date.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

BT are talking about a method where they put a VOIP ATA in the
cabinet so the line itself remains analogue

Over the weekend, I spoke to a friend who's worked for BT since leaving
school after 'O' levels. He thinks in a similar way that they put extra
cabinets outside the exchange gates to allow FTTC on EO lines, they'll
put more cabinets outside of exchanges to accommodate the retained
analogue lines.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Andy Burns

BT are talking about a method where they put a VOIP ATA in the
cabinet so the line itself remains analogue

Over the weekend, I spoke to a friend who's worked for BT since leaving
school after 'O' levels.  He thinks in a similar way that they put extra
cabinets outside the exchange gates to allow FTTC on EO lines, they'll
put more cabinets outside of exchanges to accommodate the retained
analogue lines.

Interesting, and logical.

Presumably once you have broken your 'xDSL virginity' that exists on
your copper line (as most of us did 20 years ago) you can't go a model
of solo PSTN using the above scheme ?

[Graham J]

Post by Andy Burns

BT are talking about a method where they put a VOIP ATA in the
cabinet so the line itself remains analogue

Over the weekend, I spoke to a friend who's worked for BT since leaving
school after 'O' levels.  He thinks in a similar way that they put extra
cabinets outside the exchange gates to allow FTTC on EO lines, they'll
put more cabinets outside of exchanges to accommodate the retained
analogue lines.

My friend lives in an extremely rural area only about 100 miles north of
London. He has an analog phone line, but the copper pair is too long to
support any sort of DSL. There is no green cabinet anywhere between him
and the exchange.

He reports: "We have had extended talks with both Openreach and BT. As a
result we have been assured that there was no chance of connection to
any digital pathway but that our copper line would remain available even
after the general cut off date."

One wonders how this will be achieved, particularly if there is a fault
and there are no analog-trained engineers available to fix the problem.

[David Wade]

Post by Graham J

Post by Andy Burns

BT are talking about a method where they put a VOIP ATA in the
cabinet so the line itself remains analogue

Over the weekend, I spoke to a friend who's worked for BT since
leaving school after 'O' levels.  He thinks in a similar way that they
put extra cabinets outside the exchange gates to allow FTTC on EO
lines, they'll put more cabinets outside of exchanges to accommodate
the retained analogue lines.

My friend lives in an extremely rural area only about 100 miles north of
London.  He has an analog phone line, but the copper pair is too long to
support any sort of DSL.  There is no green cabinet anywhere between him
and the exchange.

DSL is basically as "end-of-life" as the copper it runs on.

Post by Graham J
He reports: "We have had extended talks with both Openreach and BT. As a
result we have been assured that there was no chance of connection to
any digital pathway but that our copper line would remain available even
after the general cut off date."
One wonders how this will be achieved, particularly if there is a fault
and there are no analog-trained engineers available to fix the problem.

I suspect he will get Fibre eventually or be told to use 4G or 5G if
available. OpenReach say they can deliver FTTP up to 98km away from the
exchange...

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/09/a-look-at-openreachs-compact-fttp-broadband-ont-and-mini-olt.html

or

https://tinyurl.com/58zmkpaj

so I wonder how that squares with "no chance of digital"...
... very odd...

Dave

[Graham J]

Post by David Wade

Post by Graham J

Post by Andy Burns

BT are talking about a method where they put a VOIP ATA in the
cabinet so the line itself remains analogue

Over the weekend, I spoke to a friend who's worked for BT since
leaving school after 'O' levels.  He thinks in a similar way that
they put extra cabinets outside the exchange gates to allow FTTC on
EO lines, they'll put more cabinets outside of exchanges to
accommodate the retained analogue lines.

My friend lives in an extremely rural area only about 100 miles north
of London.  He has an analog phone line, but the copper pair is too
long to support any sort of DSL.  There is no green cabinet anywhere
between him and the exchange.

DSL is basically as "end-of-life" as the copper it runs on.

Post by Graham J
He reports: "We have had extended talks with both Openreach and BT. As
a result we have been assured that there was no chance of connection
to any digital pathway but that our copper line would remain available
even after the general cut off date."
One wonders how this will be achieved, particularly if there is a
fault and there are no analog-trained engineers available to fix the
problem.

I suspect he will get Fibre eventually or be told to use 4G or 5G if
available. OpenReach say they can deliver FTTP up to 98km away from the
exchange...
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/09/a-look-at-openreachs-compact-fttp-broadband-ont-and-mini-olt.html
or
https://tinyurl.com/58zmkpaj
so I wonder how that squares with "no chance of digital"...
... very odd...

It's not the capability of 98km which is relevant - it is the cost of
installing the fibre itself. It may is about 10km from my friend's
property to the nearest existing optical fibre, and he has been quoted
£1,030,689.70 for for a fibre connection.

He does get a weak 4G connection - but only if he hangs out of an
upstairs window.

[[e-mail]]

SNIP

Post by Graham J

Post by David Wade
I suspect he will get Fibre eventually or be told to use 4G or 5G if
available. OpenReach say they can deliver FTTP up to 98km away from the
exchange...

Indeed.

Post by Graham J

Post by David Wade
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/09/a-look-at-openreachs-compact-fttp-broadband-ont-and-mini-olt.html
or
https://tinyurl.com/58zmkpaj
so I wonder how that squares with "no chance of digital"...
... very odd...

It's not the capability of 98km which is relevant - it is the cost of
installing the fibre itself. It may is about 10km from my friend's
property to the nearest existing optical fibre, and he has been quoted
£1,030,689.70 for for a fibre connection.

HS2 could do it cheaper than that!

Post by Graham J
He does get a weak 4G connection - but only if he hangs out of an
upstairs window.

Use an external Yagi and some 4G modem (e.g. Teltonika) near it and get a [landline] phone number for Voipfone.

Post by Graham J
--
Graham J

[David Wade]

Post by Graham J

Post by David Wade

Post by Graham J

Post by Andy Burns

BT are talking about a method where they put a VOIP ATA in the
cabinet so the line itself remains analogue

Over the weekend, I spoke to a friend who's worked for BT since
leaving school after 'O' levels.  He thinks in a similar way that
they put extra cabinets outside the exchange gates to allow FTTC on
EO lines, they'll put more cabinets outside of exchanges to
accommodate the retained analogue lines.

My friend lives in an extremely rural area only about 100 miles north
of London.  He has an analog phone line, but the copper pair is too
long to support any sort of DSL.  There is no green cabinet anywhere
between him and the exchange.

DSL is basically as "end-of-life" as the copper it runs on.

Post by Graham J
He reports: "We have had extended talks with both Openreach and BT.
As a result we have been assured that there was no chance of
connection to any digital pathway but that our copper line would
remain available even after the general cut off date."
One wonders how this will be achieved, particularly if there is a
fault and there are no analog-trained engineers available to fix the
problem.

I suspect he will get Fibre eventually or be told to use 4G or 5G if
available. OpenReach say they can deliver FTTP up to 98km away from
the exchange...
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/09/a-look-at-openreachs-compact-fttp-broadband-ont-and-mini-olt.html
or
https://tinyurl.com/58zmkpaj
so I wonder how that squares with "no chance of digital"...
... very odd...

It's not the capability of 98km which is relevant - it is the cost of
installing the fibre itself.  It may is about 10km from my friend's
property to the nearest existing optical fibre, and he has been quoted
£1,030,689.70 for for a fibre connection.

That seems excessive. I wonder how many remote farms will be in the same
position. I suppose Starlink and Oneweb offer some sort of service, if
expensive....

Post by Graham J
He does get a weak 4G connection - but only if he hangs out of an
upstairs window.

I guess an external antenna then, or nanocel...

Dave

[Andy Burns]

Post by David Wade

Post by Graham J
He does get a weak 4G connection - but only if he hangs out of an
upstairs window.

I guess an external antenna then, or nanocel...

Bzzzzt!

a femtocell needs some form of broadband connection

[David Wade]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by David Wade

Post by Graham J
He does get a weak 4G connection - but only if he hangs out of an
upstairs window.

I guess an external antenna then, or nanocel...

Bzzzzt!
a femtocell needs some form of broadband connection

OFCOMM now permits repeaters for this purpose...

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/advice-for-consumers/advice/using-a-repeater-to-improve-indoor-mobile-phone-signal

& for example

https://signalboosters.co.uk/products/cel-fi-go-g41-bundle-for-businesses?variant=42454830711000

<you will have to glue the URLs>

but at £1.3k more affordable than a fibre connection

Dave

[Mark Carver]

Post by Graham J
It's not the capability of 98km which is relevant - it is the cost of
installing the fibre itself.  It may is about 10km from my friend's
property to the nearest existing optical fibre, and he has been quoted
£1,030,689.70 for for a fibre connection.
He does get a weak 4G connection - but only if he hangs out of an
upstairs window.

He may have to wake up and smell the coffee very soon then.

I suspect by the end of this decade he'll discover Royal Mail won't be
delivering to his house. The idea of universal utility provision to all
died with the 20th Century.

Does he have mains water BTW ?

[Graham J]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Graham J
It's not the capability of 98km which is relevant - it is the cost of
installing the fibre itself.  It may be about 10km from my friend's
property to the nearest existing optical fibre, and he has been quoted
£1,030,689.70 for for a fibre connection.
He does get a weak 4G connection - but only if he hangs out of an
upstairs window.

He may have to wake up and smell the coffee very soon then.
I suspect by the end of this decade he'll discover Royal Mail won't be
delivering to his house. The idea of universal utility provision to all
died with the 20th Century.
Does he have mains water BTW ?

Yes, and mains electricity. No mains sewer, but the septic tank works OK.

This is simply a rural area in the home counties - it's about 100 miles
from London. So it's not remote in the same way as for example Shetland
(where there is evidently really good 4G coverage).

[[e-mail]]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Graham J
It's not the capability of 98km which is relevant - it is the cost of
installing the fibre itself. It may be about 10km from my friend's
property to the nearest existing optical fibre, and he has been quoted
£1,030,689.70 for for a fibre connection.
He does get a weak 4G connection - but only if he hangs out of an
upstairs window.

He may have to wake up and smell the coffee very soon then.
I suspect by the end of this decade he'll discover Royal Mail won't be
delivering to his house. The idea of universal utility provision to all
died with the 20th Century.
Does he have mains water BTW ?

Yes, and mains electricity. No mains sewer, but the septic tank works OK.
This is simply a rural area in the home counties - it's about 100 miles
from London. So it's not remote in the same way as for example Shetland
(where there is evidently really good 4G coverage).
--
Graham J

There is really good mobile coverage in Inverie - the most remote village in GB. Sail or hike there - no road.

[Woody]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Graham J
It's not the capability of 98km which is relevant - it is the cost of
installing the fibre itself.  It may be about 10km from my friend's
property to the nearest existing optical fibre, and he has been
quoted £1,030,689.70 for for a fibre connection.
He does get a weak 4G connection - but only if he hangs out of an
upstairs window.

He may have to wake up and smell the coffee very soon then.
I suspect by the end of this decade he'll discover Royal Mail won't be
delivering to his house. The idea of universal utility provision to
all died with the 20th Century.
Does he have mains water BTW ?

Yes, and mains electricity.  No mains sewer, but the septic tank works OK.
This is simply a rural area in the home counties - it's about 100 miles
from London.  So it's not remote in the same way as for example Shetland
(where there is evidently really good 4G coverage).

Home Counties 100 miles from London???
Eh?
Birmingham is 100 miles from London and sure ain't in the Home Counties!

[Roger]

On 27 Nov 2023 12:59:47 +0000 (GMT), Theo

Post by Theo
BT are talking
about a method where they put a VOIP ATA in the cabinet so the line itself
remains analogue, and presumably such lines will migrate to that in due
course. Not clear on the battery backup situation for that.

I presume that you are referring to SOTAP for Analogue which,
IIUC, will be available only for existing copper lines.

[NY]

Post by ***@gmail.com
Can I check with the sages on this group whether my understanding of the timing of the digital changeover is correct?
a) All of the UK is due to have copper PSTN lines converted to digital working by December 2025.
b) After that point, exchanges that are not handover points will become redundant and will presumably be disposed of
c) As of September 2023, Openreach have not been accepting new orders for PSTN, so anyone moving home has to accept a digital circuit, whatever ISP they choose (even if they are in an "At Risk" group, eg no mobile signal, and even if their ISP is ignoring Ofcom guidelines and failing to offer a "solution" to the 999 problem such as battery backup)
d) Between now and December 2025, it is up to individual ISPs to decide their changeover programme for existing PSTN customers. So BT may change over their easy-to-convert PSTN customers on an exchange in late 2023, but are OK to delay "At Risk" customers on that exchange until 2025 if they wish. And other ISPs might choose to wait to convert customers on the same exchange until late 2025.
e) There is no requirement on when an ISP starts changing existing customers from PSTN to digital - the only constraint on how fast they plan the changover is how many customer service staff they have to handle queries and problems. So an ISP could do nothing to change people over until mid-2025 if they thought they could handle the rush over the remaining six months.

Is the plan to get rid of copper altogether, or get get rid of analogue
voice over copper?

In other words, will some people retain copper for their ADSL/VDSL
internet connection, but with phone calls now going over that copper as
VOIP rather than analogue?

Or is the intention to give every single house its own fibre by 2025? If
so, that will be one hell of a task with only two years remaining...

[Tweed]

Post by NY

Post by ***@gmail.com
Can I check with the sages on this group whether my understanding of the
timing of the digital changeover is correct?
a) All of the UK is due to have copper PSTN lines converted to digital
working by December 2025.
b) After that point, exchanges that are not handover points will become
redundant and will presumably be disposed of
c) As of September 2023, Openreach have not been accepting new orders
for PSTN, so anyone moving home has to accept a digital circuit,
whatever ISP they choose (even if they are in an "At Risk" group, eg no
mobile signal, and even if their ISP is ignoring Ofcom guidelines and
failing to offer a "solution" to the 999 problem such as battery backup)
d) Between now and December 2025, it is up to individual ISPs to decide
their changeover programme for existing PSTN customers. So BT may change
over their easy-to-convert PSTN customers on an exchange in late 2023,
but are OK to delay "At Risk" customers on that exchange until 2025 if
they wish. And other ISPs might choose to wait to convert customers on
the same exchange until late 2025.
e) There is no requirement on when an ISP starts changing existing
customers from PSTN to digital - the only constraint on how fast they
plan the changover is how many customer service staff they have to
handle queries and problems. So an ISP could do nothing to change people
over until mid-2025 if they thought they could handle the rush over the
remaining six months.

Is the plan to get rid of copper altogether, or get get rid of analogue
voice over copper?
In other words, will some people retain copper for their ADSL/VDSL
internet connection, but with phone calls now going over that copper as
VOIP rather than analogue?
Or is the intention to give every single house its own fibre by 2025? If
so, that will be one hell of a task with only two years remaining...

This:

will some people retain copper for their ADSL/VDSL internet connection, but
with phone calls now going over that copper as VOIP rather than analogue

[Graham J]

Tweed wrote:

[snip]

some people will retain copper for their ADSL/VDSL internet connection, but
with phone calls now going over that copper as VOIP rather than analogue

But where the existing copper pair is too long to support ADSL/VDSL it
appears that phone calls will be carried as analogue over that copper
pair - indefinitely!

See my earlier post reporting a friend's circumstances:

"
We have had extended talks with both Openreach and BT. As a result we
have been assured that there was no chance of connection to any digital
pathway but that our copper line would remain available even after the
general cut off date.
"

[David Wade]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

some people will retain copper for their ADSL/VDSL internet
connection, but
with phone calls now going over that copper as VOIP rather than analogue

But where the existing copper pair is too long to support ADSL/VDSL it
appears that phone calls will be carried as analogue over that copper
pair - indefinitely!
"
We have had extended talks with both Openreach and BT. As a result we
have been assured that there was no chance of connection to any digital
pathway but that our copper line would remain available even after the
general cut off date.
"
Does he have this in writing? The final cut-off date isn't until 2030 so

seven years hence. Will the people who gave him those assurances still
be in-place.

Dave

[[e-mail]]

... The final cut-off date isn't until 2030

Have I missed something here? I thought that end 2025 was the final deadline for the end of PSTN?

[David Wade]

Post by ***@gmail.com

... The final cut-off date isn't until 2030

Have I missed something here? I thought that end 2025 was the final deadline for the end of PSTN?

It is, 2030 is the target to remove all copper...

from the Register:-

https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/26/bt_begins_big_switchover_ahead/

------------------------------------------------------------------------
We asked what this meant, and the company told us that customers without
access to broadband, will be offered a "Pre Digital Landline" service,
where equipment will be installed in the local telephone exchange
allowing them to continue to use their old phone line as before.

This will be available from late 2024 and is designed to provide
"interim connectivity" until sometime around 2030, when customers will
be required to move over to Digital Voice or an alternative. So
refuseniks have until then to decide what they want to do.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

... note the phrase "allowing them to continue" so you only get this as
a replacement for an existing line, you can't order it for a new service...

Dave

[NY]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

some people will retain copper for their ADSL/VDSL internet
connection, but
with phone calls now going over that copper as VOIP rather than analogue

But where the existing copper pair is too long to support ADSL/VDSL it
appears that phone calls will be carried as analogue over that copper
pair - indefinitely!
"
We have had extended talks with both Openreach and BT. As a result we
have been assured that there was no chance of connection to any digital
pathway but that our copper line would remain available even after the
general cut off date.
"

I wonder whether the copper lines will be improved for those people who
are a long way from the exchange (and hence get ADSL but at a very slow
speed) or who are in such small communities that a "green cabinet" for
shorter copper lines is uneconomic.

My parents have a cottage in a tiny hamlet in Wensleydale. Their phone
line goes right back to the exchange in Leyburn - about 5 miles - so the
broadband speed is dire. There is a cluster of cabinets, plastered with
adverts for BTOR fibre, which is about a mile away, and it's always
surprised me that the lines from the village have never been rerouted to
it, to give xDSL over a shorter length of copper.

Will there be any incentive to upgrade those lines, or will they just be
neglected?

I wonder how many properties have to be in a locality for BTOR to
install a fibre which then branches to serve the properties.

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by NY
My parents have a cottage in a tiny hamlet in Wensleydale. Their
phone line goes right back to the exchange in Leyburn - about 5
miles - so the broadband speed is dire. There is a cluster of
cabinets, plastered with adverts for BTOR fibre, which is about a
mile away

Absolutely possible. ADSL is currently terminated at a DSLAM in the exchange,
even if there are recent fibre VDSL cabinets, because it's 20 years old.

Once the exchange closes, Openreach can instead provide ADSL and perhaps voice
over copper from the nearest fibre cabinet, if the distance for VDSL is too far.
But the ADSL speeds will be much better due to the reduced copper distance.

Virgin Media has provided voice over copper from all it's fibre cabinets for 30
years, albeit with older technology.

Angus

[[e-mail]]

Post by NY
My parents have a cottage in a tiny hamlet in Wensleydale. Their
phone line goes right back to the exchange in Leyburn - about 5
miles - so the broadband speed is dire. There is a cluster of
cabinets, plastered with adverts for BTOR fibre, which is about a
mile away

Absolutely possible. ADSL is currently terminated at a DSLAM in the exchange,
even if there are recent fibre VDSL cabinets, because it's 20 years old.
Once the exchange closes, Openreach can instead provide ADSL and perhaps voice
over copper from the nearest fibre cabinet, if the distance for VDSL is too far.
But the ADSL speeds will be much better due to the reduced copper distance.

Indeed, until 2009 my ADSL came from an exchange about 2km away (as a cable layer walks) and I got 13Mbps, then BT[O] installed fibre and cabinets and I now get just over 50Mbps.

Expect to get offered digital line from the cabinets about a mile away, and maybe 50Mbps+ on GFast

Virgin Media has provided voice over copper from all it's fibre cabinets for 30
years, albeit with older technology.

Coax cable here.

Angus

[Woody]

Post by NY

Post by Graham J
[snip]

some people will retain copper for their ADSL/VDSL internet
connection, but
with phone calls now going over that copper as VOIP rather than analogue

But where the existing copper pair is too long to support ADSL/VDSL it
appears that phone calls will be carried as analogue over that copper
pair - indefinitely!
"
We have had extended talks with both Openreach and BT. As a result we
have been assured that there was no chance of connection to any
digital pathway but that our copper line would remain available even
after the general cut off date.
"

I wonder whether the copper lines will be improved for those people who
are a long way from the exchange (and hence get ADSL but at a very slow
speed) or who are in such small communities that a "green cabinet" for
shorter copper lines is uneconomic.
My parents have a cottage in a tiny hamlet in Wensleydale. Their phone
line goes right back to the exchange in Leyburn - about 5 miles - so the
broadband speed is dire. There is a cluster of cabinets, plastered with
adverts for BTOR fibre, which is about a mile away, and it's always
surprised me that the lines from the village have never been rerouted to
it, to give xDSL over a shorter length of copper.
Will there be any incentive to upgrade those lines, or will they just be
neglected?
I wonder how many properties have to be in a locality for BTOR to
install a fibre which then branches to serve the properties.

Coverage of most of Wensleydale is not bad - especially when you get up
Bainbridge way and in range of what was the TV mast (OK pole) which is
now a formal tower - so why not put them on a mi-fi connection? If they
can see the midget tower they should be able to pull north of 40Mb on
4G, so long as you choose the right provider of which I would recommend
GiffGaff (runs on O2.)