Unbelievable pain upgrading Vodafone copper to fibre

[Postman Pat]

Just spent about 5 hours on this

3hrs on a monkey chat line call centre
2hrs on a monkey voice call centre

Managed to order their 75mbps fibre plan for home.

They can retain the landline number (essential). This took hours to
sort out, via some chinese-speaking call centre, one clueless moron
after another.

They say they can't (probably) retain my fixed IP (not life or death;
I can reconfig a load of stuff)

They can't say how it will terminate. I want a box with an RJ45 for
the WAN and a BT socket for an analog phone. I have one of these
already at work with Andrews & Arnold but A&A are expensive for home
fibre (actually we have VOIP via A&A, not POTS, and the A&A VOIP was
extremely painful to get working so I am not doing that again).

They say we will get a Voda router. I said I use my own router
(Draytek 2955, FYI) and just need the login credentials for that. The
RJ45 cable goes straight from the BT box to the router WAN socket.
This is standard stuff. In fact with A&A the router config was same
from copper to fibre. But Voda are clueless.

If the Openreach guy turns up and I cannot get my own router set up, I
will cancel the installation but hopefully the ADSL+analog will be
retained.

At the end of this I was ready to top myself.

Can anyone offer any suggestions here to retain my sanity? :)

[Graham J]

Post by Postman Pat
Just spent about 5 hours on this

[snip tale of woe]

Use Zen Internet. Order FTTP at £35 per month. Comes with static IP.
You will get an ONT with an RJ45 connector, installed by Openreach or
their subcontractor - so no analog phone capability. But you can use
your own router.

Zen will send you one of their Fritzboxes for free - but you don't have
to use it - if you need the facilities of the Draytek 2955 the Fritzbox
is a waste of time.

Wait until it is installed and working.

Use Voipfone for your voice calls. Create an account. Port your
existing landline number into Voipfone. This will automatically cancel
any existing FTTC service.

I did this: it was very straightforward. Voipfone are easy to use and
communicate with. You will need either a VoIP phone or an ATA to work
with their service.

If you are anywhere near Thetford in Norfolk I can help you set this up.

[Peter]

Post by Graham J
Use Zen Internet. Order FTTP at £35 per month. Comes with static IP.
You will get an ONT with an RJ45 connector, installed by Openreach or
their subcontractor - so no analog phone capability. But you can use
your own router.

I would rather die than to do that.

I don't want VOIP. I have a 3-8 PBX at home which just works and keeps
working.

One Q is whether anybody knows whether the BT guy will be able to give
me the login creds for the router PPPOE interface. They *should* be
the same as the existing Voda service over copper. Voda are doing this
as an UPGRADE now NEW, to preserve the landline number. Keeping the
existing router is key, for VPNs etc.

Voda is £25/m for 75mbps.

A&A is about 40/m and we went to them at work only because they did a
3G backup (lots of losses of connectivity out in the sticks) and while
that works it has become misconfigured and the IPs no longer get
transferred to it, so it works only for outgoing connections (they
can't fix it).

[Graham J]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
Use Zen Internet. Order FTTP at £35 per month. Comes with static IP.
You will get an ONT with an RJ45 connector, installed by Openreach or
their subcontractor - so no analog phone capability. But you can use
your own router.

I would rather die than to do that.
I don't want VOIP. I have a 3-8 PBX at home which just works and keeps
working.

[snip]

You difficulty is that I don't think there is any such thing as an ONT
with an analog phone socket any more. Everybody who supplies "Digital
Voice" does so using their own proprietary router - e.g. the Fritzbox
from Zen. Or as explained in the email from Vodafone that you quoted.

If you port your phone number to Voipfone and use an ATA you can connect
that to your PBX.

If your PBX handles multiple simultaneous incoming and outgoing calls
then you need to re-think everything. If your PBX has a VoIP input then
use it.

[Theo]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
Use Zen Internet. Order FTTP at £35 per month. Comes with static IP.
You will get an ONT with an RJ45 connector, installed by Openreach or
their subcontractor - so no analog phone capability. But you can use
your own router.

I would rather die than to do that.
I don't want VOIP. I have a 3-8 PBX at home which just works and keeps
working.

So what do you want phone-wise? There is/will be no analogue voice any
more. You either use VF's VOIP service or you use a third party VOIP
service, but you can't avoid VOIP if you care about phone service.

If VF won't give you analogue phone (highly likely, since you aren't paying
copper 'line rental' any more) then it's VOIP or nothing.

You can present that VOIP to an analogue phone socket if you want, but it's
still VOIP.

Post by Peter
One Q is whether anybody knows whether the BT guy will be able to give
me the login creds for the router PPPOE interface.

That's not how it works. Openreach provide the hardware, OR route VF's PPP
connection to your ONT, your router logs into that PPPoE session. All the
login side of things is VF, not OR. OR are just a subcontractor to VF here,
so they aren't providing you with an internet connection, VF are.

Post by Peter
They *should* be the same as the existing Voda service over copper. Voda
are doing this as an UPGRADE now NEW, to preserve the landline number.
Keeping the existing router is key, for VPNs etc.

Effectivelly all you're changing from OR delivering a PPPoA (ADSL) or PPPoE
(VDSL) session to the phone socket on your wall, to delivering it on the
ethernet port of your ONT. Everything else from here on up is VF's
territory.

Whether VF choose to just switch your route from your DSL line to your FTTP
line, and keep the rest the same, or have more provisioning changes, is up
to them.

Theo

[Peter]

Post by Theo
So what do you want phone-wise? There is/will be no analogue voice any
more. You either use VF's VOIP service or you use a third party VOIP
service, but you can't avoid VOIP if you care about phone service.

My simple analog PBX (8 lines) plugs into a 1-line BT POTS phone
socket.

So I need something which provides that BT POTS socket.

I am aware that VOIP needs a "VOIP ISP" (a VOIP server) but I need to
retain my landline number which won't happen with some other VOIP
server. Currently VF own that number. It can be moved to another VOIP
provider I am sure but that is yet more work.

It looks like the only way I will get a POTS socket is via that
VF-supplied router, but then I lose my remote working options (various
VPNs etc).

That VF router will just have 4 x RJ45 LAN sockets; the usual thing.
And NAT, as usual. Useless to me.

Post by Theo
Effectivelly all you're changing from OR delivering a PPPoA (ADSL) or PPPoE
(VDSL) session to the phone socket on your wall, to delivering it on the
ethernet port of your ONT. Everything else from here on up is VF's
territory.

When I moved from A&P copper to A&P fibre, I just moved the router's
WAN cable from the ADSL modem (Draytek 120) to the RJ45 on the BT box.
The router PPPOE login did not change.

Looks like I best cancel this whole deal and return to it when BT
*forces* a change to fibre, a few years from now. Maybe go with an ISP
one can talk to (for an extra £20/month for ever ;)).

What else can I do, specifically to

1) get a POTS socket with my existing landline #
2) get a WAN RJ45 to my router's WAN socket?

Item 2) was done trivially with A&A at work but there we have no POTS;
we have a VOIP setup (with SNOM phones) which was a nightmare to get
working.

I understand this stuff to a fair degree (do embedded hardware &
software for my day job, arm32, C, asm, etc) but dealing with these
morons does my head in.

I also see it is quite possible that the BT OR guy won't be able to
give me the router PPPOE login creds. And the script morons at Voda
certainly won't.

Maybe an option is to get an internet-POTS adaptor, from some VOIP
provider, and transfer my landline # to them, as a separate (and
prior) exercise to the main job. But then I will be paying money all
the time, whereas Voda have that number already for no extra cost.
Maybe I misunderstand...

[Graham J]

Peter wrote:

[snip]

Post by Peter
Maybe an option is to get an internet-POTS adaptor, from some VOIP
provider, and transfer my landline # to them, as a separate (and
prior) exercise to the main job. But then I will be paying money all
the time, whereas Voda have that number already for no extra cost.
Maybe I misunderstand...

I suggest - as per my earlier post - that you get FTTP from a reputable
supplier FIRST.

Then set up an account with Voipfone.

Then port your existing landline number to Voipfone, which will cancel
your existing internet connection with Voda.


Costs:

= FTTP @ £35 / month from Zen - may be more than Voda but you know it
makes sense.

= Landline port into Voipfone £24 one off, plus £3.60 per month rental.

= Call charges nominally 1p/minute.

= ATA for connection to your PBX about £60. Voipfone will configure it
for you.


My experience with Voipfone is with the SNOM 300 phones - and these have
been very easy to set up. Not sure why A&A made it so difficult for you.

[Peter]

Post by Graham J
I suggest - as per my earlier post - that you get FTTP from a reputable
supplier FIRST.
Then set up an account with Voipfone.
Then port your existing landline number to Voipfone, which will cancel
your existing internet connection with Voda.

OK but if you propose decoupling the ISP from the VOIP server, why not
use VF for the internet (I "just" need to get the PPPOE login)?

I was with ZEN for many years and left them because they moved to
script monkey call centres. VF use these anyway but the difference is
that with VF one never needed support.

[Tim+]

Post by Peter
I was with ZEN for many years and left them because they moved to
script monkey call centres. VF use these anyway but the difference is
that with VF one never needed support.

Are you *sure* it was Zen? Your experience seems to be at complete odds
with most other folks’ experiences (including my own).

Virgin have been a disaster for my Daughter. Expensive and unreliable.
When we were with Virgin “customer support” consisted of them wasting as
much of my time as possible to talk me out of not leaving.

Tim

[David Wade]

Post by Tim+

Post by Peter
I was with ZEN for many years and left them because they moved to
script monkey call centres. VF use these anyway but the difference is
that with VF one never needed support.

Are you *sure* it was Zen? Your experience seems to be at complete odds
with most other folks’ experiences (including my own).
Virgin have been a disaster for my Daughter. Expensive and unreliable.
When we were with Virgin “customer support” consisted of them wasting as
much of my time as possible to talk me out of not leaving.

I believe vf == VodaFone not virgin...

Post by Tim+
Tim

Dave

[Peter]

Post by David Wade

Post by Tim+
Virgin have been a disaster for my Daughter. Expensive and unreliable.
When we were with Virgin “customer support” consisted of them wasting as
much of my time as possible to talk me out of not leaving.

I believe vf == VodaFone not virgin...

Yes; Virgin are shit.

[Peter]

Post by Tim+
Are you *sure* it was Zen? Your experience seems to be at complete odds
with most other folks’ experiences (including my own).

100%. They were good in early years. I had BT Home Highway with them,
for years.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 21:35:12 +0100, Peter

Post by Peter
I was with ZEN for many years and left them because they moved to
script monkey call centres.

Really? That's not my experience at all. I've only very rarely needed
to contact their tech support but on every occasion I've encountered
agents who speak English and understand my descrption of the problem.

Rod.

[Ken]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 08:22:53 +0100, Roderick Stewart

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 21:35:12 +0100, Peter

Post by Peter
I was with ZEN for many years and left them because they moved to
script monkey call centres.

Really? That's not my experience at all. I've only very rarely needed
to contact their tech support but on every occasion I've encountered
agents who speak English and understand my descrption of the problem.

More Rochdale than English, but perfectly comprehensible.

Post by Roderick Stewart
Rod.

[Ken]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 21:35:12 +0100, Peter

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
I suggest - as per my earlier post - that you get FTTP from a reputable
supplier FIRST.
Then set up an account with Voipfone.
Then port your existing landline number to Voipfone, which will cancel
your existing internet connection with Voda.

OK but if you propose decoupling the ISP from the VOIP server, why not
use VF for the internet (I "just" need to get the PPPOE login)?
I was with ZEN for many years and left them because they moved to
script monkey call centres. VF use these anyway but the difference is
that with VF one never needed support.

You sure about Zen? I place calls with Zen about once a month, and
always get a knowledgeable and helpful answer, no matter how obscure
my question.

[David Wade]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
Use Zen Internet. Order FTTP at £35 per month. Comes with static IP.
You will get an ONT with an RJ45 connector, installed by Openreach or
their subcontractor - so no analog phone capability. But you can use
your own router.

I would rather die than to do that.

I am pretty sure that is what you have ordered.

https://support.vodafone.co.uk/Broadband/Set-up-getting-started-Home-Broadband-/1829588002/How-to-set-up-my-home-phone.htm

If you want to retain a POTS line you need to cancel the fibre install
and migration but soon you have no choice, well unless you actually die
first.

Post by Peter
I don't want VOIP. I have a 3-8 PBX at home which just works and keeps
working.

They expect you to use their router, which has a BT socket, into which
you plug the PBX

Post by Peter
One Q is whether anybody knows whether the BT guy will be able to give
me the login creds for the router PPPOE interface. They *should* be
the same as the existing Voda service over copper. Voda are doing this
as an UPGRADE now NEW, to preserve the landline number. Keeping the
existing router is key, for VPNs etc.

They can give you those credentials BUT not the VOIP credentials. If you
don't use their router you won't get a phone service.

https://forum.vodafone.co.uk/t5/Landline/Landline-phone-with-own-router-on-FTTP/td-p/2709457

Post by Peter
Voda is £25/m for 75mbps.

sometimes you get what you pay for.

Post by Peter
A&A is about 40/m and we went to them at work only because they did a
3G backup (lots of losses of connectivity out in the sticks) and while
that works it has become misconfigured and the IPs no longer get
transferred to it, so it works only for outgoing connections (they
can't fix it).

Thats your choice, but you won't get you want from vodafone.

I took out a new FTTP service with ZEN so my voice and FTTC service
remained in place. The ZEN router was set to forward all packets to my
Draytek router. After updating the DNS to the new IP the VPNs that
connect in still work.

I then ported my phone number to voipfone. This cancelled my old FTTC
service. The ZEN router is open enough to let me configure the voipfone
connection in that. I then plugged my phone system into the ZEN router
via the supplied BT socket that goes into the RJ11 on the router...

I did a lot of research on here BEFORE ordering. I wonder why you didn't
any only asked after you had placed the order..

Dave

[Peter]

Post by David Wade
They can give you those credentials BUT not the VOIP credentials. If you
don't use their router you won't get a phone service.

Right, so I can get internet working, but no phone.

What stops me porting my number *now* to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

Post by David Wade

Post by Peter
Voda is £25/m for 75mbps.

sometimes you get what you pay for.

Voda have been excellent. Zero downtime over 10 years. Customer
service (I have some phone SIMs, for which Voda is the very best for
European travel) is good.

Post by David Wade
I did a lot of research on here BEFORE ordering. I wonder why you didn't
any only asked after you had placed the order..

I didn't think it would be difficult, especially as Voda said they can
do the "box" with the WAN and POTS sockets on it.

I have such a box on the wall at work, A&A. The POTS socket is not
used but clearly the BT OR product exists.

[Jeff Gaines]

What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

I'd be interested to know if that is practical. Fibre is being laid in my
village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but that
is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do it but
there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it would be
expensive.

[Peter]

Post by Jeff Gaines

What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

I'd be interested to know if that is practical.

It should be. The gotcha is that for VOIP you have to open some ports
in your router. IIRC, up in the 5000 range (VOIP UDP ports etc) and I
don't like doing that because these get instantly port sniffed by the
chinks and they attack them. One fix is to firewall them to accept
traffic only from the VOIP provider, and hope he never changes them ;)

That's if you want incoming calls. If you just want outgoing calls
then you don't need to open any ports. I have been doing this for
years on my phone (Localtalk is one provider; a crap one but usable).

Post by Jeff Gaines
Fibre is being laid in my
village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but that
is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do it but
there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it would be
expensive.

I am with A&A at work. We pay about £40/month for internet and VOIP.
We have 4 phones and each has its own IP (we have a subnet of 6 IPs,
IIRC. So A&A run the VOIP server (asterisk??) in-house. This is a
method which most don't recommend and indeed we had lots of problems
transferring calls! These were eventually fixed and now it seems to
work.

Come to think of it I have an A&A VOIP phone (an extension "at the
office") on my desk here at home! I can never remember the router
config but on a quick look I can see some port 5060 open ports for the
Snom phone. These are firewalled to accept traffic only from A&A.

I didn't go to A&A at home a) because they are pricey and b) because I
didn't want the same ISP at home and at work.

[Graham J]

Post by Peter

Post by Jeff Gaines

What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

I'd be interested to know if that is practical.

It should be. The gotcha is that for VOIP you have to open some ports
in your router. IIRC, up in the 5000 range (VOIP UDP ports etc) and I
don't like doing that because these get instantly port sniffed by the
chinks and they attack them. One fix is to firewall them to accept
traffic only from the VOIP provider, and hope he never changes them ;)

[snip]

I use Voipfone with a Vigor 2860 router. It all "just works" - no
special configuration needed in the router.

[Peter]

Post by Graham J
I use Voipfone with a Vigor 2860 router. It all "just works" - no
special configuration needed in the router.

What phones?

It is possible to do that if the phone keeps the NAT tunnel open.

[Graham J]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
I use Voipfone with a Vigor 2860 router. It all "just works" - no
special configuration needed in the router.

What phones?
It is possible to do that if the phone keeps the NAT tunnel open.

SNOM 300
and Gigaset N510 IP PRO with Gigaset S700 H Pro handsets

The phones "register" with Voipfone, which presumably avoids any
problems with NAT.

[Peter]

Post by Graham J

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
I use Voipfone with a Vigor 2860 router. It all "just works" - no
special configuration needed in the router.

What phones?
It is possible to do that if the phone keeps the NAT tunnel open.

SNOM 300
and Gigaset N510 IP PRO with Gigaset S700 H Pro handsets
The phones "register" with Voipfone, which presumably avoids any
problems with NAT.

I spoke to VOIPfone re this
https://www.voipfone.co.uk/shop.php?method=view&pid=142
and it needs port 5060 open to the internal LAN.

I currently have port 5060 open in NAT, with a source IP from A&A (a
sort of firewall) and a dest IP of the actual Snom phone. AIUI a port
like 5060 *must* be forwarded to a given internal IP, or is that
optional? One obviously does want to accept 5060 packets only from
specific origin IPs otherwise half of china will be in there.

So it looks like I can create another rule where 5060 is open to
packets from Voipfone source IP(s) and a dest IP of their little box.

I will get one of these and test it. It won't have my landline number
(they come with some funny number) so I can test it.

Then when Voda turn up with their stupid useless router I can chuck it
in the bin and config the PPPOE credentials in the Draytek and
internet "should work" but I won't have a phone. Then on the same day
I can port the landline number to the Voipfone service.

Does that sounds reasonable?

I cannot believe that everybody who goes to Voda for FTTP loses their
VPNs and everything else. It MUST be possible to use your own router.

[Tweed]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
I use Voipfone with a Vigor 2860 router. It all "just works" - no
special configuration needed in the router.

What phones?
It is possible to do that if the phone keeps the NAT tunnel open.

SNOM 300
and Gigaset N510 IP PRO with Gigaset S700 H Pro handsets
The phones "register" with Voipfone, which presumably avoids any
problems with NAT.

I spoke to VOIPfone re this
https://www.voipfone.co.uk/shop.php?method=view&pid=142
and it needs port 5060 open to the internal LAN.
I currently have port 5060 open in NAT, with a source IP from A&A (a
sort of firewall) and a dest IP of the actual Snom phone. AIUI a port
like 5060 *must* be forwarded to a given internal IP, or is that
optional? One obviously does want to accept 5060 packets only from
specific origin IPs otherwise half of china will be in there.
So it looks like I can create another rule where 5060 is open to
packets from Voipfone source IP(s) and a dest IP of their little box.
I will get one of these and test it. It won't have my landline number
(they come with some funny number) so I can test it.
Then when Voda turn up with their stupid useless router I can chuck it
in the bin and config the PPPOE credentials in the Draytek and
internet "should work" but I won't have a phone. Then on the same day
I can port the landline number to the Voipfone service.
Does that sounds reasonable?
I cannot believe that everybody who goes to Voda for FTTP loses their
VPNs and everything else. It MUST be possible to use your own router.

You might find this helpful

https://www.draytek.co.uk/support/guides/kb-fttp-wan-setup

And yes lots of people use non VF supplied routers on the VF FTTP service.

I’ve read elsewhere that your Vigor router might not keep up if you’ve
ordered one of the faster FTTP speeds.

[Graham J]

Peter wrote:

[snip]

Post by Peter
I spoke to VOIPfone re this
https://www.voipfone.co.uk/shop.php?method=view&pid=142
and it needs port 5060 open to the internal LAN.

I'm not familiar with the Grandstream device, but have previously used a
Linksys ATA, and that did not need any special configuration of the
router. Tested with a Vigor 2830 and a TP-Link TD-W8960N.

Experience with SNOM 300 and the Gigaset N510 IP PRO confirms that no
port opening is required. So I don't know why Voipfone suggest it.

Post by Peter
I currently have port 5060 open in NAT, with a source IP from A&A (a
sort of firewall) and a dest IP of the actual Snom phone. AIUI a port
like 5060 *must* be forwarded to a given internal IP, or is that
optional? One obviously does want to accept 5060 packets only from
specific origin IPs otherwise half of china will be in there.

This may be the way that A&A choose to implement their VoIP service.

Post by Peter
So it looks like I can create another rule where 5060 is open to
packets from Voipfone source IP(s) and a dest IP of their little box.
I will get one of these and test it. It won't have my landline number
(they come with some funny number) so I can test it.

Good idea. If you order it from Voipfone they will configure it
correctly for you.

Post by Peter
Then when Voda turn up with their stupid useless router I can chuck it
in the bin and config the PPPOE credentials in the Draytek and
internet "should work" but I won't have a phone. Then on the same day
I can port the landline number to the Voipfone service.
Does that sounds reasonable?

Yes.

Post by Peter
I cannot believe that everybody who goes to Voda for FTTP loses their
VPNs and everything else. It MUST be possible to use your own router.

In the global scheme of things using your own router for its VPN
capability is VERY UNUSUAL.

[Peter]

Post by Graham J
Experience with SNOM 300 and the Gigaset N510 IP PRO confirms that no
port opening is required. So I don't know why Voipfone suggest it.

Unless you a keep-aline for the NAT tunnel, you cannot receive
incoming calls.

Post by Graham J

Post by Peter
I will get one of these and test it. It won't have my landline number
(they come with some funny number) so I can test it.

Good idea. If you order it from Voipfone they will configure it
correctly for you.

I can't set up voipfone either, believe it or not. Their account conf
email vanishes in the Hornet Security spam filter, although their
original purchase conf email arrived ok. You could not make this up.
They cannot override this manually due to "security" even after I sent
them their own email.

Post by Graham J

Post by Peter
Then when Voda turn up with their stupid useless router I can chuck it
in the bin and config the PPPOE credentials in the Draytek and
internet "should work" but I won't have a phone. Then on the same day
I can port the landline number to the Voipfone service.
Does that sounds reasonable?

Yes.

Post by Peter
I cannot believe that everybody who goes to Voda for FTTP loses their
VPNs and everything else. It MUST be possible to use your own router.

In the global scheme of things using your own router for its VPN
capability is VERY UNUSUAL.

One could debate that... :) What about at one's office?

[Theo]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
Experience with SNOM 300 and the Gigaset N510 IP PRO confirms that no
port opening is required. So I don't know why Voipfone suggest it.

Unless you a keep-aline for the NAT tunnel, you cannot receive
incoming calls.

I think SIP clients typically do use a keepalive on their connection, for
this reason.

I'm considering a move to VF, anyone know if third party VOIP (A&A) works
out of the box on their router? I've never had an ISP where it didn't work
(worst case with some router tweaking), but just curious if anyone can
confirm.

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
In the global scheme of things using your own router for its VPN
capability is VERY UNUSUAL.

One could debate that... :) What about at one's office?

They are typically not using a consumer FTTP service, which is what we're
talking about here. You can of course have a business service and connect
your on-prem Cisco router to the end of it, but that's a different ballgame.

Theo

[Mark Carver]

Post by Theo

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
Experience with SNOM 300 and the Gigaset N510 IP PRO confirms that no
port opening is required. So I don't know why Voipfone suggest it.

Unless you a keep-aline for the NAT tunnel, you cannot receive
incoming calls.

I think SIP clients typically do use a keepalive on their connection, for
this reason.
I'm considering a move to VF, anyone know if third party VOIP (A&A) works
out of the box on their router?

I would have thought so. VF are just a bargain basement ISP aimed at the
mass market, their router will have its doors 'wide open' to keep any
pesky support calls from gamers, or streamers at bay (due to possible
closed ports)

[Peter]

Post by Theo
I think SIP clients typically do use a keepalive on their connection, for
this reason.

IME this sometimes exists and sometimes it has to be set up. The Snom
phones have a STUN (?) server config. Years ago I got an old Nokia 808
phone working on VOIP (on WIFI), incoming too. Nokia specialised in
corporate products for that... My current Snom phones do not use this,
AFAICT, hence I had to do the port fwd in NAT for them. Maybe they can
but A&A sure didn't mention that, and they would have done because it
makes life so much easier.

Post by Theo
I'm considering a move to VF, anyone know if third party VOIP (A&A) works
out of the box on their router? I've never had an ISP where it didn't work
(worst case with some router tweaking), but just curious if anyone can
confirm.

I will be running a Voipfone 801 box on a Draytek 2955 on Voda ADSL
pretty soon...

Post by Theo

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
In the global scheme of things using your own router for its VPN
capability is VERY UNUSUAL.

One could debate that... :) What about at one's office?

They are typically not using a consumer FTTP service, which is what we're
talking about here. You can of course have a business service and connect
your on-prem Cisco router to the end of it, but that's a different ballgame.

Isn't it just pricing? "Business" is 40 quid a month and upwards.

I work from home. Is that "consumer" or "business"? The Voda product
is called "business broadband".

VF has been excellent, on both phones (GSM and landline) and ADSL.
Zero downtime over maybe 10 years. Muppet call centres but they have
always had good people running the systems.

25 quid a month for 75mbps, minus 50% for 1st year, is hard to argue
with.

I've just looked at A&A pricing and it is much more than VF, for half
the speed, and with total data caps (admittedly at a high level like
1TB).

[Tim+]

Post by Peter
VF has been excellent, on both phones (GSM and landline) and ADSL.

A friend of mine runs a courier business. Relies very heavily on mobile
phone use.

She contacted VF about her *daughter’s* contract (which my friend also paid
for) which she wanted to cancel and was absolutely explicit about which
account she wanted to keep active.

VF cancelled the wrong one and were completely unable to “resurrect” the
cancelled number. Caused a *huge* amount of aggro.

Oddly enough she’s no longer with VF.

Tim

[Tweed]

Post by Tim+

Post by Peter
VF has been excellent, on both phones (GSM and landline) and ADSL.

A friend of mine runs a courier business. Relies very heavily on mobile
phone use.
She contacted VF about her *daughter’s* contract (which my friend also paid
for) which she wanted to cancel and was absolutely explicit about which
account she wanted to keep active.
VF cancelled the wrong one and were completely unable to “resurrect” the
cancelled number. Caused a *huge* amount of aggro.
Oddly enough she’s no longer with VF.
Tim

But that’s a problem with any large organisation. Huge number of customer
facing employees, some good some hopeless. I still haven’t got my late
mother out of the BT phone directory, three years after her death and after
numerous interactions with their bereavement line.

[Peter]

But that’s a problem with any large organisation. Huge number of customer
facing employees, some good some hopeless.

I agree. IME, Voda is much better than

- Virgin
- Orange
- O2

but give them a chance to f'k up, they will.

I still haven’t got my late
mother out of the BT phone directory, three years after her death and after
numerous interactions with their bereavement line.

Try Talktalk ;) They really f'd over my mum, after she went into a
care home. It was resolved (on the advice of a guy in a Carphone
Warehouse shop, owned by TT) by sending a Special Dely letter to their
Company Secy, to his home address, threatening a CCJ.

[Tim+]

Post by Peter

But that’s a problem with any large organisation. Huge number of customer
facing employees, some good some hopeless.

I agree. IME, Voda is much better than
- Virgin
- Orange
- O2
but give them a chance to f'k up, they will.

I still haven’t got my late
mother out of the BT phone directory, three years after her death and after
numerous interactions with their bereavement line.

Try Talktalk ;) They really f'd over my mum, after she went into a
care home. It was resolved (on the advice of a guy in a Carphone
Warehouse shop, owned by TT) by sending a Special Dely letter to their
Company Secy, to his home address, threatening a CCJ.

Similar issues with TalkTalk and my mother who lost capacity to manage her
affairs whilst at home. Impossible to deal with so I just migrated her
phone and broadband to another company but with me paying the bills.

Tim

[SH]

Post by Peter

Post by Tweed
But that’s a problem with any large organisation. Huge number of customer
facing employees, some good some hopeless.

I agree. IME, Voda is much better than
- Virgin
- Orange
- O2

*Cough* Orange does not exist anymore as it merged with T-Mobile to
become EE which was then bought by BT.

Post by Peter
but give them a chance to f'k up, they will.

Post by Tweed
I still haven’t got my late
mother out of the BT phone directory, three years after her death and after
numerous interactions with their bereavement line.

Try Talktalk ;) They really f'd over my mum, after she went into a
care home. It was resolved (on the advice of a guy in a Carphone
Warehouse shop, owned by TT) by sending a Special Dely letter to their
Company Secy, to his home address, threatening a CCJ.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Peter

Post by Tweed
But that’s a problem with any large organisation. Huge number of customer
facing employees, some good some hopeless.

I agree. IME, Voda is much better than
- Virgin
- Orange
- O2

*Cough*   Orange does not exist anymore as it merged with T-Mobile to
become EE which was then bought by BT.

Having been a customer of Vodafone, and now EE, EE have been infinitely
better (even since BT taking them over) , (so far, YMMV)

[Graham J]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
Experience with SNOM 300 and the Gigaset N510 IP PRO confirms that no
port opening is required. So I don't know why Voipfone suggest it.

Unless you a keep-aline for the NAT tunnel, you cannot receive
incoming calls.

Post by Graham J

Post by Peter
I will get one of these and test it. It won't have my landline number
(they come with some funny number) so I can test it.

Good idea. If you order it from Voipfone they will configure it
correctly for you.

I can't set up voipfone either, believe it or not. Their account conf
email vanishes in the Hornet Security spam filter, although their
original purchase conf email arrived ok. You could not make this up.
They cannot override this manually due to "security" even after I sent
them their own email.

I think you should investigate this, to find out exactly why Hornet
Security rejected the email from Voipfone.

Several possibilities:

1. The Voipfone outgoing mail server has a blacklisted IP address. If
so, it would be polite to tell Voipfone ASAP so they can resolve it.

2. You are receiving your email via a forwarding service which fails to
implement the Sender Rewriting Scheme correctly. See:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Rewriting_Scheme>

123-reg were known for this problem a few years back, when its ownership
changed hands.

3. Hornet Security is being too aggressive. You could whitelist traffic
from Voipfone.

[Peter]

Post by Graham J
I think you should investigate this, to find out exactly why Hornet
Security rejected the email from Voipfone.

I did. Hornet didn't give details, beyond saying the incoming email
contained an exploit. I just whitelisted the domain and the issue went
away.

Their initial account confirm email went through ok but you cannot
login to the control panel etc until you have confirmed a link in
another email and it was this one which wasn't coming through.

Post by Graham J
1. The Voipfone outgoing mail server has a blacklisted IP address. If
so, it would be polite to tell Voipfone ASAP so they can resolve it.

Could be.

Post by Graham J
2. You are receiving your email via a forwarding service which fails to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Rewriting_Scheme>
123-reg were known for this problem a few years back, when its ownership
changed hands.

I don't know.

Post by Graham J
3. Hornet Security is being too aggressive. You could whitelist traffic
from Voipfone.

Could well be.

I spent an hour or two on it.

[Graham J]

Post by Jeff Gaines

What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

I'd be interested to know if that is practical. Fibre is being laid in
my village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but
that is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do
it but there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it
would be expensive.

It depends on how reliable your ADSL is. Personally I would not
recommend it - ADSL is generally not reliable enough. FTTC might be,
but my green cabinet was 1.1km away and the FTTC service never stayed up
for more than a couple of days. The one-minute connection break for a
re-sync is not a problem for internet browsing, but certainly would be
for VoIP.

Since getting FTTP I've used Voipfone. Monthly fee for porting-in a
number is £3.60, and call charges nominally 1p per minute. So it
compares favourably with the phone call component of a traditional
landline with broadband.

[Peter]

Post by Graham J
It depends on how reliable your ADSL is. Personally I would not
recommend it - ADSL is generally not reliable enough. FTTC might be,
but my green cabinet was 1.1km away and the FTTC service never stayed up
for more than a couple of days. The one-minute connection break for a
re-sync is not a problem for internet browsing, but certainly would be
for VoIP.

Indeed; I would normally not do VOIP over copper ADSL. One reason
being that BT fix analog line faults fast but take weeks (around here)
to fix data services.

So FTTP would be the only way for VOIP, in the long run.

Post by Graham J
Since getting FTTP I've used Voipfone. Monthly fee for porting-in a
number is £3.60, and call charges nominally 1p per minute. So it
compares favourably with the phone call component of a traditional
landline with broadband.

Can they supply a "box" with a POTS socket, an RJ45 going to my LAN,
and I open some ports in my router for it?

[David Wade]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
It depends on how reliable your ADSL is. Personally I would not
recommend it - ADSL is generally not reliable enough. FTTC might be,
but my green cabinet was 1.1km away and the FTTC service never stayed up
for more than a couple of days. The one-minute connection break for a
re-sync is not a problem for internet browsing, but certainly would be
for VoIP.

Indeed; I would normally not do VOIP over copper ADSL. One reason
being that BT fix analog line faults fast but take weeks (around here)
to fix data services.
So FTTP would be the only way for VOIP, in the long run.

Post by Graham J
Since getting FTTP I've used Voipfone. Monthly fee for porting-in a
number is £3.60, and call charges nominally 1p per minute. So it
compares favourably with the phone call component of a traditional
landline with broadband.

Can they supply a "box" with a POTS socket, an RJ45 going to my LAN,
and I open some ports in my router for it?

They have a couple ....

https://www.voipfone.co.uk/shop.php?method=category&pid=2

Dave

[Graham J]

Peter wrote:

[snip]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
Since getting FTTP I've used Voipfone. Monthly fee for porting-in a
number is £3.60, and call charges nominally 1p per minute. So it
compares favourably with the phone call component of a traditional
landline with broadband.

Can they supply a "box" with a POTS socket, an RJ45 going to my LAN,
and I open some ports in my router for it?

Yes, see:

<https://www.voipfone.co.uk/shop.php?method=view&pid=140>

No need to open any router ports, in my experience with a Vigor 2860 router.

[Peter]

Post by Graham J
No need to open any router ports, in my experience with a Vigor 2860 router.

They say 5060 must be open - see my other post just now.

[Malcolm Loades]

Post by Jeff Gaines

What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

I'd be interested to know if that is practical. Fibre is being laid in my
village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but that
is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do it but
there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it would be
expensive.

Eh?

£15.00 one off to port a landline number in. Then £1.44 per month 'line
rental'. You don't have to have A&A broadband or any other service from
them for this. If that's not cheap I don't know what is.

Yes, their outgoing call rates are higher than many but you are under no
obligation to use them. Just use another supplier eg a Betamax offering
for outgoing calls while incoming are via A&A.

Malcolm

[Tweed]

Post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Jeff Gaines

What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

I'd be interested to know if that is practical. Fibre is being laid in my
village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but that
is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do it but
there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it would be
expensive.

Eh?
£15.00 one off to port a landline number in. Then £1.44 per month 'line
rental'. You don't have to have A&A broadband or any other service from
them for this. If that's not cheap I don't know what is.
Yes, their outgoing call rates are higher than many but you are under no
obligation to use them. Just use another supplier eg a Betamax offering
for outgoing calls while incoming are via A&A.
Malcolm

1.5p/min to landlines 4p/min to mobiles, no call setup charges, inc VAT.

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Jeff Gaines

What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

I'd be interested to know if that is practical. Fibre is being laid in my
village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but that
is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do it but
there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it would be
expensive.

Eh?
£15.00 one off to port a landline number in. Then £1.44 per month 'line
rental'. You don't have to have A&A broadband or any other service from
them for this. If that's not cheap I don't know what is.
Yes, their outgoing call rates are higher than many but you are under no
obligation to use them. Just use another supplier eg a Betamax offering
for outgoing calls while incoming are via A&A.
Malcolm

1.5p/min to landlines 4p/min to mobiles and 3.6p per text is expensive
compared to my current landline deal or mobile deal.

[Malcolm Loades]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Jeff Gaines

What stops me porting my number now to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

I'd be interested to know if that is practical. Fibre is being laid in my
village at the moment and will go live over the next few months but that
is Internet only. I looked at Andrews & Arnold for VOIP and they do it but
there is a monthly fee plus per call fees and it looks as if it would be
expensive.

Eh?
£15.00 one off to port a landline number in. Then £1.44 per month 'line
rental'. You don't have to have A&A broadband or any other service from
them for this. If that's not cheap I don't know what is.
Yes, their outgoing call rates are higher than many but you are under no
obligation to use them. Just use another supplier eg a Betamax offering
for outgoing calls while incoming are via A&A.
Malcolm

1.5p/min to landlines 4p/min to mobiles and 3.6p per text is expensive
compared to my current landline deal or mobile deal.

You are missing the point! I agreed A&A were not the cheapest for
outgoing calls. Just because you may use A&A to receive calls on the
number ported to them you *don't* have to make *any* outgoing calls via
them! Make them via another voip provider.

I have two old landline numbers which I ported to them and pay £2.88
total a month to receive calls to those numbers. I route outgoing calls
to all UK numbers and most European numbers for 0p per minute using the
180 freedays I get every time I top up my account with £10. The tenner
is spent on those calls which are chargeable eg 08700 and countries to
which there are no free calls.

You must get out of your head that everything must be done via a single
provider.

Malcolm

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Malcolm Loades
You must get out of your head that everything must be done via a single
provider.

I am considering what I might do but I do not want a lot of hassle just
for a 'phone, it's not that important to me.

The other option is to go mobile only of course.

[Theo]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Malcolm Loades
You must get out of your head that everything must be done via a single
provider.

I am considering what I might do but I do not want a lot of hassle just
for a 'phone, it's not that important to me.

If you don't use the phone very much, a PAYG plan sounds ideal.

A lot of people pay for an unlimited calls package, and then don't spend
many minutes making calls. You need to do the maths of 1.5p/min versus
paying say £10pm for the unlimited bundle. I think many people don't make
10 hours of landline calls a month.

Post by Jeff Gaines
The other option is to go mobile only of course.

That's the other option - there are some good deals for that.

Or use the mobile for your outgoing calls, and keep the landline for
incoming.

Plenty of ways to play this.

Theo

[Tony Mountifield]

Post by Theo

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Malcolm Loades
You must get out of your head that everything must be done via a single
provider.

I am considering what I might do but I do not want a lot of hassle just
for a 'phone, it's not that important to me.

If you don't use the phone very much, a PAYG plan sounds ideal.
A lot of people pay for an unlimited calls package, and then don't spend
many minutes making calls. You need to do the maths of 1.5p/min versus
paying say £10pm for the unlimited bundle. I think many people don't make
10 hours of landline calls a month.

Exactly! I recently ported my BT home number to A&A VOIP. I was paying BT 23/month which
included unlimited outbound calls to landlines of up to an hour duration. So I
downloaded the list of outbound calls we had made over the last 12-15 months, and
calculated how much I would have paid for them if they had been over A&A VOIP. It worked
out at about 2/month for the calls. Add 1.44/month for the VOIP rental, and it was a
no-brainer, saving me nearly 20/month.

I was already with A&A as my ISP on a different copper pair (which made it easy), had
many years experience with VOIP and Asterisk, and fortunately still had a couple of
Sipura SPA-3000 ATAs left over from my business, to which I could connect the existing
house phone. It was easy to set one up using a temporary number for testing, and then
to port the home number to A&A.

It's been running a couple of months now without any issues, and it feels no different.

Oh, and A&A call charges to landlines are 1.5p/min peak, 1.25p/min evenings and 1p/min
weekends.

In fact, we now tend to use our mobiles instead for outbound calls, which are inclusive.

Cheers
Tony

[Peter]

That Grandstream 801 box is a real POS.

The admin/admin login does not work.

The user/123 login does but only 2nd time or subsequent; on 1st you
always get
Sorry, your login password is not recognized,
or you do not have access privilege. Please try again.
Remaining Attempts: 4

The firmware upload URL is lost; never gets saved.
I am using firmware.grandstream.com (per many google hits and the 801
admin manual). Maybe the save is disabled because I am logged in as a
user and not admin.

The phone socket is dead. Phone is totally silent. However it does say
under Status that it is registered.

I am not sure what kind of phone it is expecting. Obviously this box
won't be outputting the 50V. So the phone needs to be separately
powered.

[Peter]

The other thing is that, contrary to what Voipfone told me, there is
no need to open any ports in NAT. This box goes out and does a keep
alive every 20s or so.

[Peter]

It's working!

It needed a FCC68-BT adaptor (which mysteriously didn't come in the
box) and the right kind of dumb POTS phone (I found a BT Converse 120
in a box of junk).

Now I am ready for the Voda FTTP conversion. On the day they do it I
will port my number to Voipfone. They are great; I got a phone call in
reply to my email this morning, Saturday!

The stuff about opening port 5060 is indeed basically nonsense; it is
advice for heavy corporate systems which are totally firewalled both
ways.

Thank you all!

[Graham J]

Post by Peter
It's working!
It needed a FCC68-BT adaptor (which mysteriously didn't come in the
box) and the right kind of dumb POTS phone (I found a BT Converse 120
in a box of junk).

I suspect the Grandstream is made for the USA market. I think it
assumes CAT5 flood wiring for the phone connections. I remember needing
the FCC68-BT adaptor when connecting phones in a business environment.

If you measure what comes out of the adapter there will be about 50v dc
otherwise your dumb POTS phone would not work. I always keep a dumb
POTS phone for testing - the last one cost me £10 from Curry's.

Have Voipfone been able to resolve the admin login issue? Did they
perhaps pre-configure it with a password?

If you look at the Voipfone account management page:

<https://my.voipfone.co.uk/#!/services/master-account/phone-settings>

You might find the 6-digit password that they have set up in the
Grandstream. They do this for the SNOM 300 phones that I've used.

It's worth reviewing and documenting all the Grandstream settings.

Post by Peter
Now I am ready for the Voda FTTP conversion. On the day they do it I
will port my number to Voipfone. They are great; I got a phone call in
reply to my email this morning, Saturday!

I've certainly found them quite helpful.

Post by Peter
The stuff about opening port 5060 is indeed basically nonsense; it is
advice for heavy corporate systems which are totally firewalled both
ways.
Thank you all!

[Peter]

Post by Graham J
Have Voipfone been able to resolve the admin login issue? Did they
perhaps pre-configure it with a password?

Yes - the admin pwd was something else. I guess most people don't need
it, so the issue doesn't arise.

Post by Graham J
<https://my.voipfone.co.uk/#!/services/master-account/phone-settings>
You might find the 6-digit password that they have set up in the
Grandstream. They do this for the SNOM 300 phones that I've used.

Interesting. Didn't notice that. Thanks.

[Graham J]

Peter wrote:

[snip]

Post by Peter
Interesting. Didn't notice that. Thanks.

Well worth reviewing everything on the management site ...

[David Wade]

Post by Peter

Post by David Wade
They can give you those credentials BUT not the VOIP credentials. If you
don't use their router you won't get a phone service.

Right, so I can get internet working, but no phone.
What stops me porting my number *now* to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

Well of course they "may" deliver what you think you asked for but I
don't believe so.

Your current ADSL service relies in the phone line. When you port the
number they will cease the ADSL. You should be able port it at any time
after. OFCOM says number portability will to continue after the move to
VOIP, but then you will need to provide VOIP hardware/adaptor.

Post by Peter

Post by David Wade

Post by Peter
Voda is £25/m for 75mbps.

sometimes you get what you pay for.

Voda have been excellent. Zero downtime over 10 years. Customer
service (I have some phone SIMs, for which Voda is the very best for
European travel) is good.

Yet you started by ranting about there call centre staff.

Post by Peter

Post by David Wade
I did a lot of research on here BEFORE ordering. I wonder why you didn't
any only asked after you had placed the order..

I didn't think it would be difficult, especially as Voda said they can
do the "box" with the WAN and POTS sockets on it.

Remember you were speaking to a sales droid. They are tasked with
selling VFs standard service. You get an ONT into which you plug the
router. The router has Ethernet and Phone sockets. Sounds like it will
do what you want. I'll just say yes and I can get on with the next call.

Well seeing as you no longer have POTS that will be challenging. I think
some of the issue here is you are asking for POTS and on FTTP there is
no such thing as POTS on FTTP. There may be a standard BT socket as on
my Zen router, but POTS it isn't as unplugging its PSU reveals.

I am pretty sure what you will receive is a standard VF Router.

Post by Peter
I have such a box on the wall at work, A&A. The POTS socket is not
used but clearly the BT OR product exists.

Its not a POTS socket, its a BT socket on a VOIP adaptor. Unless you
have battery backup it won't work in a power cut. While the product
existed, I am not sure its still being delivered. If you check its
probably a Huawei and I think BT is now using Nokia kit. Something about
the Chinese government...

Reports on here suggest when asked for a POTS line on a fibre only
exchange BT now deliver a standard ONT + BT router but this may vary
from area to area.

I think you may be able to set the VF router into a modem mode where the
WAN interface is copied to the VF router Ethernet ports and you can plug
your phone service into its BT socket, but ITS NOT POTS.

Dave

[Peter]

Post by David Wade
Your current ADSL service relies in the phone line. When you port the
number they will cease the ADSL. You should be able port it at any time
after. OFCOM says number portability will to continue after the move to
VOIP, but then you will need to provide VOIP hardware/adaptor.

A very good point!

Post by David Wade
Remember you were speaking to a sales droid. They are tasked with
selling VFs standard service. You get an ONT into which you plug the
router. The router has Ethernet and Phone sockets. Sounds like it will
do what you want. I'll just say yes and I can get on with the next call.

Exactly.

Post by David Wade
Well seeing as you no longer have POTS that will be challenging. I think
some of the issue here is you are asking for POTS and on FTTP there is
no such thing as POTS on FTTP. There may be a standard BT socket as on
my Zen router, but POTS it isn't as unplugging its PSU reveals.

I understand I need an adaptor, and a VOIP provider.

Post by David Wade
I am pretty sure what you will receive is a standard VF Router.

Yes

Post by David Wade

Post by Peter
I have such a box on the wall at work, A&A. The POTS socket is not
used but clearly the BT OR product exists.

Its not a POTS socket, its a BT socket on a VOIP adaptor. Unless you
have battery backup it won't work in a power cut.

Sure; no way to send 50V via the fibre :)

Post by David Wade
While the product
existed, I am not sure its still being delivered. If you check its
probably a Huawei and I think BT is now using Nokia kit. Something about
the Chinese government...

Right. It went in 2018 or so.

Post by David Wade
Reports on here suggest when asked for a POTS line on a fibre only
exchange BT now deliver a standard ONT + BT router but this may vary
from area to area.

AIUI BT deliver what the ISP told them to.

Post by David Wade
I think you may be able to set the VF router into a modem mode where the
WAN interface is copied to the VF router Ethernet ports and you can plug
your phone service into its BT socket, but ITS NOT POTS.

That would be ideal.

Where would the PPPOE login be set up? In the VF box or in my Draytek
2955?

Presumably in the former, to get their POTS socket to work.

I just need to be fairly sure this is possible i.e convert one of the
four (?) LAN ports on the VF router into a WAN/PPPOE port.

[David Wade]

Post by Peter

Post by David Wade
Your current ADSL service relies in the phone line. When you port the
number they will cease the ADSL. You should be able port it at any time
after. OFCOM says number portability will to continue after the move to
VOIP, but then you will need to provide VOIP hardware/adaptor.

A very good point!

Post by David Wade
Remember you were speaking to a sales droid. They are tasked with
selling VFs standard service. You get an ONT into which you plug the
router. The router has Ethernet and Phone sockets. Sounds like it will
do what you want. I'll just say yes and I can get on with the next call.

Exactly.

Post by David Wade
Well seeing as you no longer have POTS that will be challenging. I think
some of the issue here is you are asking for POTS and on FTTP there is
no such thing as POTS on FTTP. There may be a standard BT socket as on
my Zen router, but POTS it isn't as unplugging its PSU reveals.

I understand I need an adaptor, and a VOIP provider.

Post by David Wade
I am pretty sure what you will receive is a standard VF Router.

Yes

Post by David Wade

Post by Peter
I have such a box on the wall at work, A&A. The POTS socket is not
used but clearly the BT OR product exists.

Its not a POTS socket, its a BT socket on a VOIP adaptor. Unless you
have battery backup it won't work in a power cut.

Sure; no way to send 50V via the fibre :)

Post by David Wade
While the product
existed, I am not sure its still being delivered. If you check its
probably a Huawei and I think BT is now using Nokia kit. Something about
the Chinese government...

Right. It went in 2018 or so.

Post by David Wade
Reports on here suggest when asked for a POTS line on a fibre only
exchange BT now deliver a standard ONT + BT router but this may vary
from area to area.

AIUI BT deliver what the ISP told them to.

Well its actually Openreach that deliver. But you can only order
"services" from OpenReach (there used to be a catalogue) not particular
items of kit. So the method of delivery may vary.

Post by Peter

Post by David Wade
I think you may be able to set the VF router into a modem mode where the
WAN interface is copied to the VF router Ethernet ports and you can plug
your phone service into its BT socket, but ITS NOT POTS.

That would be ideal.
Where would the PPPOE login be set up? In the VF box or in my Draytek
2955?

VF box

Post by Peter
Presumably in the former, to get their POTS socket to work.

yes

Post by Peter
I just need to be fairly sure this is possible i.e convert one of the
four (?) LAN ports on the VF router into a WAN/PPPOE port.

I can't help there as I can't find a link to download the manual....

Dave

[Mark Carver]

Post by Peter
What stops me porting my number *now* to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

Because of the way Openreach provision ADSL and FTTC services, by using
your 'landline' phone number, any attempt to port that number away, will
lead to the ADSL or FTTC service being ceased too.

I gather, you can now port your landline number away in the 30 days
following the cessation of an ADSL or FTTC connection.

In other words, apply to port the landline number immediately (but not
before) you have an FTTP connection up and running.
Obviously your number will be unobtainable for a few days, while the
port procedure is applied

[Tweed]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Peter
What stops me porting my number *now* to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

Because of the way Openreach provision ADSL and FTTC services, by using
your 'landline' phone number, any attempt to port that number away, will
lead to the ADSL or FTTC service being ceased too.
I gather, you can now port your landline number away in the 30 days
following the cessation of an ADSL or FTTC connection.
In other words, apply to port the landline number immediately (but not
before) you have an FTTP connection up and running.
Obviously your number will be unobtainable for a few days, while the
port procedure is applied

I ported my landline number away and kept my FTTC service, but that was
done by Andrews and Arnold, who know what they are doing.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Peter
What stops me porting my number *now* to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

Because of the way Openreach provision ADSL and FTTC services, by using
your 'landline' phone number, any attempt to port that number away, will
lead to the ADSL or FTTC service being ceased too.
I gather, you can now port your landline number away in the 30 days
following the cessation of an ADSL or FTTC connection.
In other words, apply to port the landline number immediately (but not
before) you have an FTTP connection up and running.
Obviously your number will be unobtainable for a few days, while the
port procedure is applied

I ported my landline number away and kept my FTTC service, but that was
done by Andrews and Arnold, who know what they are doing.

And I presume your FTTC service was with A&A too ?

[Tweed]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Peter
What stops me porting my number *now* to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

Because of the way Openreach provision ADSL and FTTC services, by using
your 'landline' phone number, any attempt to port that number away, will
lead to the ADSL or FTTC service being ceased too.
I gather, you can now port your landline number away in the 30 days
following the cessation of an ADSL or FTTC connection.
In other words, apply to port the landline number immediately (but not
before) you have an FTTP connection up and running.
Obviously your number will be unobtainable for a few days, while the
port procedure is applied

I ported my landline number away and kept my FTTC service, but that was
done by Andrews and Arnold, who know what they are doing.

And I presume your FTTC service was with A&A too ?

Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.

[Theo]

Post by Tweed
Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.

SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
do it if somebody else runs the broadband.

Theo

[Mark Carver]

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.

SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
do it if somebody else runs the broadband.

That's right. I think it's based upon Openreach's 'Re-number and
Re-provide' scheme, of which A&A are the only ISP to have taken it up,
(owing to their reassuringly expensiveness)

[Tweed]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.

SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
do it if somebody else runs the broadband.

That's right. I think it's based upon Openreach's 'Re-number and
Re-provide' scheme, of which A&A are the only ISP to have taken it up,
(owing to their reassuringly expensiveness)

Point is, A&A did not provide the phone line or phone number prior to the
the change, only the broadband,

[Mark Carver]

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.

SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
do it if somebody else runs the broadband.

That's right. I think it's based upon Openreach's 'Re-number and
Re-provide' scheme, of which A&A are the only ISP to have taken it up,
(owing to their reassuringly expensiveness)

Point is, A&A did not provide the phone line or phone number prior to the
the change, only the broadband,

No, but you still had to get the POTs service into A&A's 'ownership'
before they could initiate the port to VoIP.

I'm not criticising it at all, but it's a niche service, from a niche
ISP,  that would only ever be utilised by 'people like us'.

[Tweed]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.

SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
do it if somebody else runs the broadband.

That's right. I think it's based upon Openreach's 'Re-number and
Re-provide' scheme, of which A&A are the only ISP to have taken it up,
(owing to their reassuringly expensiveness)

Point is, A&A did not provide the phone line or phone number prior to the
the change, only the broadband,

No, but you still had to get the POTs service into A&A's 'ownership'
before they could initiate the port to VoIP.
I'm not criticising it at all, but it's a niche service, from a niche
ISP,  that would only ever be utilised by 'people like us'.

Must have happened in milliseconds. From my perspective the pots service
was ported directly from Zen to A&A VOIP. The physical line went to being
billed by A&A at the same time.

Virgin Media are now attempting to be reassuringly expensive with their
price rises. (Different location to the A&A service) Unfortunately they
aren’t that reassuring and I’ll be jumping ship as soon as CityFibre can
put some fibre in the purple pipes they are laying.

[Graham J]

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.

SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
do it if somebody else runs the broadband.

Any ISP providing both phone and broadband can convert the broadband to
SOGEA.

See:

<https://www.btwholesale.com/news-and-resources/campaigns/previous/sogea.html>

[Theo]

Post by Graham J

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.

SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
do it if somebody else runs the broadband.

Any ISP providing both phone and broadband can convert the broadband to
SOGEA.

The common situation is the phone and broadband is run by $cheapo_ISP and
you want to port the number to A&A VOIP. You can't do that without also
porting the broadband to A&A as well (very not cheap).

If you're on SOGEA, can you now port out the number without ceasing the
broadband?

Theo

[Graham J]

Post by Theo

Post by Graham J

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
Phone line rental and POTS voice was with Zen. FTTC with A&A. Phone line
converted to wires only and billed by A&A, phone number ported to A&A VOIP.
A&A FTTC service survived the ordeal unscathed.

SFAIK A&A's ability to extract the number out of an operating PSTN line
depends on them providing both the phone line and the broadband. You can't
do it if somebody else runs the broadband.

Any ISP providing both phone and broadband can convert the broadband to
SOGEA.

The common situation is the phone and broadband is run by $cheapo_ISP and
you want to port the number to A&A VOIP. You can't do that without also
porting the broadband to A&A as well (very not cheap).
If you're on SOGEA, can you now port out the number without ceasing the
broadband?

SOGEA is a broadband-only service carried over a copper pair. It's not
associated with any sort of telephone number.

Until recently conversion to SOGEA would have irretrievably cancelled
the telephone number. But since about Easter this year it has been
possible to port-in a cancelled number to another provider, such as
Voipfone.

Whether $cheapo_ISP will allow the conversion to SOGEA I've no idea.

[Theo]

Post by Graham J

Post by Theo
The common situation is the phone and broadband is run by $cheapo_ISP and
you want to port the number to A&A VOIP. You can't do that without also
porting the broadband to A&A as well (very not cheap).
If you're on SOGEA, can you now port out the number without ceasing the
broadband?

SOGEA is a broadband-only service carried over a copper pair. It's not
associated with any sort of telephone number.
Until recently conversion to SOGEA would have irretrievably cancelled
the telephone number. But since about Easter this year it has been
possible to port-in a cancelled number to another provider, such as
Voipfone.
Whether $cheapo_ISP will allow the conversion to SOGEA I've no idea.

The question is more that, once the connection is SOGEA, whether the losing
ISP will do anything to the broadband if the phone number is ported out?
They shouldn't, since it's now on their VOIP platform, but I don't know if
the 'phone number is the account number' practice continues on SOGEA ISPs?

(On Sky SOGEA, I've been asked for the phone number as an identifier when
calling them. When I tell them I have no idea, they manage to find another
way to authenticate me)

Theo

[Mark Carver]

Post by Theo

Post by Graham J

Post by Theo
The common situation is the phone and broadband is run by $cheapo_ISP and
you want to port the number to A&A VOIP. You can't do that without also
porting the broadband to A&A as well (very not cheap).
If you're on SOGEA, can you now port out the number without ceasing the
broadband?

SOGEA is a broadband-only service carried over a copper pair. It's not
associated with any sort of telephone number.
Until recently conversion to SOGEA would have irretrievably cancelled
the telephone number. But since about Easter this year it has been
possible to port-in a cancelled number to another provider, such as
Voipfone.
Whether $cheapo_ISP will allow the conversion to SOGEA I've no idea.

The question is more that, once the connection is SOGEA, whether the losing
ISP will do anything to the broadband if the phone number is ported out?
They shouldn't, since it's now on their VOIP platform, but I don't know if
the 'phone number is the account number' practice continues on SOGEA ISPs?
(On Sky SOGEA, I've been asked for the phone number as an identifier when
calling them. When I tell them I have no idea, they manage to find another
way to authenticate me)

Interestingly if you move house with Sky, you cannot keep your landline
phone number.
My son moved all of 400 yards recently, and Sky changed the virtual
phone number. (Not that he cared)

Ironically, if you migrate to Sky from another ISP where you have a POTs
line, you do usually keep your number.
If you leave Sky, you lose it.

[Mark Undrill]

On 24/08/2023 07:11, Peter wrote:
<snip>

Post by Peter
What stops me porting my number *now* to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

I did this for a few years with no problem. My rural ADSL managed about
8/10 Mbps.

<snip>

[[e-mail]]

Post by Mark Undrill
<snip>

Post by Peter
What stops me porting my number *now* to some VOIP service and running
it on my current ADSL?

Virtually nothing, except that this might cancel your ADSL. Suggest Voipfone.

Very reliable, worth incident - one day of slowness when they suffered a DDoS attack.

Post by Mark Undrill
I did this for a few years with no problem. My rural ADSL managed about
8/10 Mbps.
<snip>

I did this 15+ years ago. Lowest [certain] link speeds were 8Mbps ADSL and 7M2bps (3G), however even 1Mbps is plenty for multiple connections.

[Graham J]

***@gmail.com wrote:

[snip]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Mark Undrill
I did this for a few years with no problem. My rural ADSL managed about
8/10 Mbps.
<snip>

I did this 15+ years ago. Lowest [certain] link speeds were 8Mbps ADSL and 7M2bps (3G), however even 1Mbps is plenty for multiple connections.

I used Voipfone in 2011 for a satellite connection with Tooway. Huge
latency, slow speeds, but the VoIP service worked fine.

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
Use Zen Internet. Order FTTP at £35 per month. Comes with static IP.
You will get an ONT with an RJ45 connector, installed by Openreach or
their subcontractor - so no analog phone capability. But you can use
your own router.

I would rather die than to do that.
I don't want VOIP. I have a 3-8 PBX at home which just works and keeps
working.
One Q is whether anybody knows whether the BT guy will be able to give
me the login creds for the router PPPOE interface. They *should* be
the same as the existing Voda service over copper. Voda are doing this
as an UPGRADE now NEW, to preserve the landline number. Keeping the
existing router is key, for VPNs etc.

But BT aren't providing you with a router. They aren't really even
providing you with FTTP. Openreach are providing a PON connection
which Vodafone are using to provide you with a service.

[Peter]

Voda sent this in:


****

Your Vodafone broadband service comes with a Digital Voice Landline -
our next-generation technology.

If you use your Landline to make or receive calls, or for equipment
such as alarms or medical devices, please read this information
carefully as this change may affect how you use these services.

What is Digital Voice?

Digital Voice uses your broadband connection to make and receive calls
instead of using the older telephone network.
This means, instead of plugging into your home's phone socket, you'll
need to plug it into your wi-fi hub.

Why am I moving to Digital Voice?

Openreach have announced that they're shutting down the traditional
telephone network and all customers will be using digital voice
technology by 2025.

To prepare our customers for this change all our broadband plans now
come with Digital Voice services as standard.

How do I get set up?

On the day your new service goes live, simply connect your existing
home phone into one of the telephone ports on the back of your
Vodafone WiFi Hub. Depending on your plan, you may need an adaptor.
This will be supplied with your equipment if required.

This step is really important - once your new service goes live, the
phone socket(s) in your house will no longer work. If you have
multiple handsets, you'll need to plug all phones into the back of the
router or use wireless phones that work with Digital Voice.

****

This sounds useless; I need a box on the wall with a POTS socket; I
don't want to plug my POTS phone into the back of a Voda router
because I won't be using that router.

[Theo]

Post by Postman Pat
They can't say how it will terminate. I want a box with an RJ45 for
the WAN and a BT socket for an analog phone. I have one of these
already at work with Andrews & Arnold but A&A are expensive for home
fibre (actually we have VOIP via A&A, not POTS, and the A&A VOIP was
extremely painful to get working so I am not doing that again).

If this is Openreach FTTP, not Cityfibre, you should get an ONT box on the
wall. That presents Ethernet and uses PPPoE. You plugin a router to that.

Most ISPs don't let you use your own ATA so you lose voice service if you
switch out their router, but it sounds like VF allow that:
https://forum.vodafone.co.uk/t5/Other-broadband-queries/VOIP-SIP-Settings/td-p/2730610
https://forum.vodafone.co.uk/t5/Landline/Landline-phone-with-own-router-on-FTTP/m-p/2709457#M1354
https://github.com/clayface/VF-UK-Asterisk-config

People are saying it only works with Grandstream devices. I think I would
read the whole of the second thread (all 25 pages) to be clear of the
current situation.

Post by Postman Pat
They say we will get a Voda router. I said I use my own router
(Draytek 2955, FYI) and just need the login credentials for that. The
RJ45 cable goes straight from the BT box to the router WAN socket.
This is standard stuff. In fact with A&A the router config was same
from copper to fibre. But Voda are clueless.

Since there's an existence proof of somebody doing it, I suggest reading
that forum to find out how to set up your own router.

Post by Postman Pat
If the Openreach guy turns up and I cannot get my own router set up, I
will cancel the installation but hopefully the ADSL+analog will be
retained.

I expect it to take potentially more fiddling than the OR guy has time for,
and to even begin fiddling your installation will be complete. So not
convinced you will be able to reject it at that stage.

It is a good idea to run them in parallel for a bit, so if there's an issue
you still have DSL to fall back to. I don't know if VF are set up to allow
that.

Post by Postman Pat
Can anyone offer any suggestions here to retain my sanity? :)

Read the VF forum to understand the current situation, since they have
direct experience of it.

Theo

[Peter]

Post by Theo
If this is Openreach FTTP, not Cityfibre, you should get an ONT box on the
wall. That presents Ethernet and uses PPPoE. You plugin a router to that.

It is just OR (Brighton area, out in the sticks).

The Q is where do I get the PPPOE credentials.

Presumably one can login into the Voda-supplied shitty router,
192.168.1.1 etc, and read them out of there?

[Peter]

Post by Theo
I think I would
read the whole of the second thread (all 25 pages) to be clear of the
current situation.

I have read most of it and no way am I going to be able to get that to
work.

[David Wade]

Post by Postman Pat
Just spent about 5 hours on this
3hrs on a monkey chat line call centre
2hrs on a monkey voice call centre
Managed to order their 75mbps fibre plan for home.
They can retain the landline number (essential). This took hours to
sort out, via some chinese-speaking call centre, one clueless moron
after another.
They say they can't (probably) retain my fixed IP (not life or death;
I can reconfig a load of stuff)
They can't say how it will terminate. I want a box with an RJ45 for
the WAN and a BT socket for an analog phone. I have one of these
already at work with Andrews & Arnold but A&A are expensive for home
fibre (actually we have VOIP via A&A, not POTS, and the A&A VOIP was
extremely painful to get working so I am not doing that again).
They say we will get a Voda router. I said I use my own router
(Draytek 2955, FYI) and just need the login credentials for that. The
RJ45 cable goes straight from the BT box to the router WAN socket.
This is standard stuff. In fact with A&A the router config was same
from copper to fibre. But Voda are clueless.
If the Openreach guy turns up and I cannot get my own router set up, I
will cancel the installation but hopefully the ADSL+analog will be
retained.

you should be able to do this by using the VF router a setting up what
the usually call a DMZ

Post by Postman Pat
At the end of this I was ready to top myself.
Can anyone offer any suggestions here to retain my sanity? :)

[Peter]

Post by David Wade
you should be able to do this by using the VF router a setting up what
the usually call a DMZ

If one can disable the NAT etc, that should work. Then I can just use
it as a box with a WAN socket and a phone socket.

Is that possible? Does anyone know the model?

[Peter]

This is an update on this saga.

BT OR finally installed FTTP and it works. Made a bad mess (see my
other post just now) but it works. Well, until the trees grow a bit
and rip the fibre out...

I never touched the Voda router. Just plugged the RJ45 from the BT box
to my Draytek router and the previous Voda login just worked. Same
fixed IP also... after a Voda monkey told me they cannot retain the IP
through an ADSL to FTTP upgrade!! Well, that is how it is supposed to
work! FTTP is just a dumb pipe.

As advised here I ported my landline number to Voiphone whose service
is really super. The porting is in progress; taking over a week so
far. We have a temporary number in the meantime.

Then I got some funny emails.

====
We require further information about your new gigabit broadband
connection so that your UK Gigabit Voucher and the associated grant
can be paid. Your funding may be at risk if no action is taken.

This email is intended for [ ]

Openreach has told us that the new broadband service you ordered from
them, or an internet provider working with Openreach, is now
connected. The cost of this installation is supported by the UK
Government’s Gigabit Broadband Voucher Scheme.

Your unique voucher number is: [ ]

Please use the link and password below to confirm that your new
connection is in place and working in line with the terms and
conditions of the scheme.

Password: [ ]
Link: https://funding-bduk.pega.net/prweb/PRAuth/VoucherValidation

If the link above does not work when clicked, please copy and paste it
into your browser.

If you are concerned about the security of the link, please visit the
scheme website for more information:
https://gigabitvoucher.culture.gov.uk

If you have any queries or the service is not delivered or working to
the contracted speeds, you should not complete the validation and
contact us to let us know at ***@dcms.gov.uk.

You should contact Openreach if you have any questions about the
service you are getting. Please note, that if you use a firewall this
may reduce your reported connection speed.

If you do not respond to this email within 28 days, BDUK may cancel
your voucher. If this happens, you may have to pay your supplier for
the full connection cost of the service funded by the voucher.

You should also note that we may ask our agent, Campbell & Kennedy
Maintenance Ltd, to contact you to confirm that your service meets the
Scheme’s terms and conditions. This may involve a site visit or a
telephone call.

Gigabit vouchers are issued subject to the terms and conditions of the
Scheme which is operated by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media
and Sport (DCMS).
https://gigabitvoucher.culture.gov.uk/terms-conditions/

Building Digital UK (BDUK)
BDUK is an Executive Agency of the Department for Digital, Culture,
Media and Sport
====

The above looked like pfishing but going to the URLs seemed to be ok;
nothing obviously dodgy.


====
Dear,
Notice of Grant Aid – [ ]
I am writing to you in relation to your recent broadband contract and
installation by Openreach connected on 06-10-2023. The purpose of this
letter is to confirm that this service contained public subsidy as
part of the Gigabit Broadband Voucher Scheme. We have paid this aid to
your supplier on your behalf.
Funded by: The Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport
This project is allowable under Section 36 of the Subsidy Control Act
2022. Therefore the value of support that you have received will count
towards your subsidy threshold of £315,000 per enterprise or
individual over any period of three (3) fiscal years, including the
current year. You will need to keep a record of this information and
will be required to declare this support if you receive or apply for
any further subsidy within the next three (3) fiscal years.
Our records show that the support set out below was provided. You may
use this letter as confirmation that you have received the support
shown if required.
Description of Subsidy Gigabit Broadband Voucher Scheme
Beneficiary:
Date of payment: 11-10-2023
Total Value : £4000.00
In addition, prior to signing this contract, you confirmed with
Openreach that:
You are a resident or meet the definition of an enterprise as defined
in Section 7 (where applicable see Section ?? of the Subsidy Control
Act 2022.
OR
You are a SME – see below for full details – which can be summarised
as:
You are a resident or qualify as being no larger than a medium-sized
company under sections 465 to 467 of the Companies Act 2006 which can
be summarised as: Up to 249 employees and annual turnover no greater
than £36 million and/or an annual balance sheet total not exceeding
£18 million.
You have not benefited from a previous Gigabit Broadband Voucher as a
result of the grant subsidy contribution shown above, you will have
received less than £315,000 in public subsidy in the last 3 years.
That you are not a public sector organisation.
If any of the above statements are not correct then please contact us
urgently at ***@dcms.gov.uk
You do not need to respond to this letter, but you must retain this
document for 3 years from the date the assistance was given and
produce it on request by the UK public authorities. You may need to
keep this letter longer than 3 years for other purposes. We are
required by law to retain this record for a period of 10 years. We may
be required to publish this information as a result of a Freedom of
Information request. If required we will publish only your name and
the amount of subsidy provided.
Yours sincerely
UK Gigabit Programme – Building Digital UK (BDUK)
BDUK is an Executive Agency of the Department for Digital, Culture,
Media and Sport
Further information on the Subsidy Control Act is available here:
LEGISLATION.GOV.UK
Subsidy Control Act 2022
====

It is a weird way to go about it... also I don't recall ever signing
up for any BT voucher. I just booked FTTP through Vodafone.

[Graham J]

Post by Peter
This is an update on this saga.

Thanks - I was thinking of you today and was going to ask ....

[snip]

Post by Peter
As advised here I ported my landline number to Voiphone whose service
is really super. The porting is in progress; taking over a week so
far. We have a temporary number in the meantime.

You can make outgoing calls before the porting is complete.

Voipfone ported 2 numbers for me. First from Plusnet requested on 15
Feb completed 22 Feb. Second from Zen requested on 20 March completed
on 27 March so 7 days. How does this compare with your times?

Post by Peter
Then I got some funny emails.

Did you follow up the first link https://funding ..... Or simply ignore
them all?

[Peter]

Post by Graham J

Post by Peter
This is an update on this saga.

Thanks - I was thinking of you today and was going to ask ....
[snip]

Post by Peter
As advised here I ported my landline number to Voiphone whose service
is really super. The porting is in progress; taking over a week so
far. We have a temporary number in the meantime.

You can make outgoing calls before the porting is complete.

Sure; that works.

Post by Graham J
Voipfone ported 2 numbers for me. First from Plusnet requested on 15
Feb completed 22 Feb. Second from Zen requested on 20 March completed
on 27 March so 7 days. How does this compare with your times?

Porting requrest on 6th Oct. Number not working yet.

Post by Graham J

Post by Peter
Then I got some funny emails.

Did you follow up the first link https://funding ..... Or simply ignore
them all?

Yes; I followed the process in the 1st email. It looked genuine and
not like some ID collecting site, but looks a clumsy web design job.

The company mentioned there (which might verify the installation) does
exist but seems to be nothing to do with fibre.

It seems weird they could go after somebody for 4k. Especially as BT
do all this for free a bit later. Many years ago I was the ADSL
coordinator for the 3 villages here; same deal.

[Graham J]

Peter wrote:

[snip]

Post by Graham J
Voipfone ported 2 numbers for me. First from Plusnet requested on 15
Feb completed 22 Feb. Second from Zen requested on 20 March completed
on 27 March so 7 days. How does this compare with your times?

Porting request on 6th Oct. Number not working yet.

Probably takes longer to extract the number from the clutches of
Vodafone ....

[Peter]

Vodafone will not under any circumstances release the old ADSL
landline number without terminating the FTTP service.

So I stopped the porting process.

I might try setting up the Voipfone VOIP box to use the Voda
credentials. I think I bought that box but if not I will buy it.

Totally unbelievable!

I asked why can't they disconnect FTTP and immediately reconnect it.
Too complicated; would need to set up a new service.

Post by Postman Pat
Just spent about 5 hours on this
3hrs on a monkey chat line call centre
2hrs on a monkey voice call centre
Managed to order their 75mbps fibre plan for home.
They can retain the landline number (essential). This took hours to
sort out, via some chinese-speaking call centre, one clueless moron
after another.
They say they can't (probably) retain my fixed IP (not life or death;
I can reconfig a load of stuff)
They can't say how it will terminate. I want a box with an RJ45 for
the WAN and a BT socket for an analog phone. I have one of these
already at work with Andrews & Arnold but A&A are expensive for home
fibre (actually we have VOIP via A&A, not POTS, and the A&A VOIP was
extremely painful to get working so I am not doing that again).
They say we will get a Voda router. I said I use my own router
(Draytek 2955, FYI) and just need the login credentials for that. The
RJ45 cable goes straight from the BT box to the router WAN socket.
This is standard stuff. In fact with A&A the router config was same
from copper to fibre. But Voda are clueless.
If the Openreach guy turns up and I cannot get my own router set up, I
will cancel the installation but hopefully the ADSL+analog will be
retained.
At the end of this I was ready to top myself.
Can anyone offer any suggestions here to retain my sanity? :)

[Peter]

I have a Grandstream box from Voipfone and have the following Voda
VOIP credentials (obfuscated)

Username ***@businessbroadband.vodafone.co.uk

Password hghghghghg

Product information for VoIP
Username / Password
cxcxcxcxc / bnvbvbvbvbv
SIP proxy
xbn.Z5.bbvoice.vodafone.co.uk
SIP registrar
resvoip.vodafone.co.uk
SIP URI
kjkjkjkjk

but have no idea where these can be configured in the Grandstream box.
For example there is no "username". It has various config boxes but
most don't correspond to the above.

I would be really grateful for any help :)

Post by Postman Pat
Just spent about 5 hours on this
3hrs on a monkey chat line call centre
2hrs on a monkey voice call centre
Managed to order their 75mbps fibre plan for home.
They can retain the landline number (essential). This took hours to
sort out, via some chinese-speaking call centre, one clueless moron
after another.
They say they can't (probably) retain my fixed IP (not life or death;
I can reconfig a load of stuff)
They can't say how it will terminate. I want a box with an RJ45 for
the WAN and a BT socket for an analog phone. I have one of these
already at work with Andrews & Arnold but A&A are expensive for home
fibre (actually we have VOIP via A&A, not POTS, and the A&A VOIP was
extremely painful to get working so I am not doing that again).
They say we will get a Voda router. I said I use my own router
(Draytek 2955, FYI) and just need the login credentials for that. The
RJ45 cable goes straight from the BT box to the router WAN socket.
This is standard stuff. In fact with A&A the router config was same
from copper to fibre. But Voda are clueless.
If the Openreach guy turns up and I cannot get my own router set up, I
will cancel the installation but hopefully the ADSL+analog will be
retained.
At the end of this I was ready to top myself.
Can anyone offer any suggestions here to retain my sanity? :)

[Graham J]

Post by Peter
I have a Grandstream box from Voipfone and have the following Voda
VOIP credentials (obfuscated)
Password hghghghghg
Product information for VoIP
Username / Password
cxcxcxcxc / bnvbvbvbvbv
SIP proxy
xbn.Z5.bbvoice.vodafone.co.uk
SIP registrar
resvoip.vodafone.co.uk
SIP URI
kjkjkjkjk
but have no idea where these can be configured in the Grandstream box.
For example there is no "username". It has various config boxes but
most don't correspond to the above.
I would be really grateful for any help :)

Have you asked Voipfone?

Why do you want to do this? It's not clear to me that your ADSL
landline number can be converted to a VoIP service from Vodafone,
particularly in the light of your earlier post.

[Peter]

Post by Graham J
Have you asked Voipfone?

Yes; they can't assist with the Voda credentials (which makes sense)
and don't seem to believe that Voda will really terminate the FTTP
service.

Post by Graham J
Why do you want to do this? It's not clear to me that your ADSL
landline number can be converted to a VoIP service from Vodafone,
particularly in the light of your earlier post.

Voda tell me that my original landline number is still available, but
only via *their* VOIP.

[David Wade]

Post by Peter

Post by Graham J
Have you asked Voipfone?

Yes; they can't assist with the Voda credentials (which makes sense)
and don't seem to believe that Voda will really terminate the FTTP
service.

Post by Graham J
Why do you want to do this? It's not clear to me that your ADSL
landline number can be converted to a VoIP service from Vodafone,
particularly in the light of your earlier post.

Voda tell me that my original landline number is still available, but
only via *their* VOIP.

Tell them that VOIP numbers must be portable.

https://vipvoip.co.uk/voip-numbers-porting/

one of many....

Dave

[Peter]

Post by David Wade

Post by Peter
Voda tell me that my original landline number is still available, but
only via *their* VOIP.

Tell them that VOIP numbers must be portable.
https://vipvoip.co.uk/voip-numbers-porting/
one of many....

Voda, some indian in an indian call centre, don't give a shit.

BUT I have it working for outgoing calls. Just not incoming. Meybe
there is a keep-alive (STUN server??) or I need to open a port in my
Draytek 2960 (prefer not to).

[Peter]

Got it working on Voda OK.

Took a while and some of the Grandstream 801 config is flakey and
seems to reset itself to some defaults when you reboot it (e.g. the
Codec list all just resets). A shitty device...

[Graham J]

Post by Peter
Got it working on Voda OK.
Took a while and some of the Grandstream 801 config is flakey and
seems to reset itself to some defaults when you reboot it (e.g. the
Codec list all just resets). A shitty device...

Some years ago I used a Linksys PAP2T and had no problems with it on
Voipfone.

[Peter]

The Vodafone dicks changed the ADSL (PPPOE) login this afternoon! No
idea why since the number port was cancelled today. Just spent a
couple of hours on the phone to them (in the gerden since we have
almost no signal) and got new credentials.

It looks like when I asked Voda for the VOIP credentials today, they
changed the PPPOE login credentials!

Oh and the fucks also dropped the fixed IP I had for years. So no
wonder the VOIP no longer works too.

Post by Graham J

Post by Peter
Got it working on Voda OK.
Took a while and some of the Grandstream 801 config is flakey and
seems to reset itself to some defaults when you reboot it (e.g. the
Codec list all just resets). A shitty device...

Some years ago I used a Linksys PAP2T and had no problems with it on
Voipfone.

[Peter]

A final instalment:

The Grandstream 801 is a piece of shit.

It randomly loses bits of the config. It changes the fixed SIP port to
Random SIP port. And it loses all the vocoder settings, though that
seems less important. I spent hours before realising that bits of the
config keep resetting themselves.

I might look for another ATA box.

[Theo]

Post by Peter
The Vodafone dicks changed the ADSL (PPPOE) login this afternoon!

I can't speak for your specifics, but I had the misfortune to call Vodafone
to sort something with somebody's account and they were equivalently useless.
It's been two months digging them out of a hole believed to be of VF's
making.

Definitely in the Avoid category it seems.

Theo

[Peter]

Post by Theo

Post by Peter
The Vodafone dicks changed the ADSL (PPPOE) login this afternoon!

I can't speak for your specifics, but I had the misfortune to call Vodafone
to sort something with somebody's account and they were equivalently useless.
It's been two months digging them out of a hole believed to be of VF's
making.
Definitely in the Avoid category it seems.
Theo

I had an argument with them re the legality of refusing to move out
the old landline number, without FTTP termination. They argued hard,
but it was some bloke in India and I could not understand him much ;)

I discovered by the Grandstream 801 box was "losing" bits of config:
it was set up to retrieve a config file from some URL, every few hours
:) That was done to cut down Voipfone tech support workload, which is
understandable.

Anyway, I think I am done. Voda are OK, and very reliable, provided
you don't have to ask them anything nontrivial / off-script.

[Peter]

Grandstream is not registering... can anyone guess where the long
username goes?

I used this as example

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rZZp6az5Ncxc2Euk0JY5zYUhQRGq4n_N/view

Post by Graham J

Post by Peter
I have a Grandstream box from Voipfone and have the following Voda
VOIP credentials (obfuscated)
Password hghghghghg
Product information for VoIP
Username / Password
cxcxcxcxc / bnvbvbvbvbv
SIP proxy
xbn.Z5.bbvoice.vodafone.co.uk
SIP registrar
resvoip.vodafone.co.uk
SIP URI
kjkjkjkjk
but have no idea where these can be configured in the Grandstream box.
For example there is no "username". It has various config boxes but
most don't correspond to the above.
I would be really grateful for any help :)

Have you asked Voipfone?
Why do you want to do this? It's not clear to me that your ADSL
landline number can be converted to a VoIP service from Vodafone,
particularly in the light of your earlier post.

[Graham J]

Post by Peter
Vodafone will not under any circumstances release the old ADSL
landline number without terminating the FTTP service.
So I stopped the porting process.
I might try setting up the Voipfone VOIP box to use the Voda
credentials. I think I bought that box but if not I will buy it.
Totally unbelievable!
I asked why can't they disconnect FTTP and immediately reconnect it.
Too complicated; would need to set up a new service.

So this is why Vofafone was offering FTTP so cheaply!

Get your FTTP from Zen then port your ADSL landline number to Voipfone.