Anyone here using Giganet fibre?

[Tony Mountifield]

Just wondering if anyone here is using Giganet full fibre, and particularly
interested in any who are using their own router instead of the supplied
Amazon eero router.

I've had it for about a month, and also still have my VDSL from A&A.
I have been finding some technical issues with Giganet, and would be interested
to compare notes with others.

Giganet themselves are appallingly unresponsive in the support department.

Cheers
Tony

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Tony Mountifield
Just wondering if anyone here is using Giganet full fibre, and particularly
interested in any who are using their own router instead of the supplied
Amazon eero router.
I've had it for about a month, and also still have my VDSL from A&A.
I have been finding some technical issues with Giganet, and would be interested
to compare notes with others.
Giganet themselves are appallingly unresponsive in the support department.
Cheers
Tony

I don't have an answer for you but Giganet finished wiring the village a
few months back and have started signing people up, we're hearing loads of
complaints about their service.

[Graham J]

Post by Tony Mountifield
Just wondering if anyone here is using Giganet full fibre, and particularly
interested in any who are using their own router instead of the supplied
Amazon eero router.
I've had it for about a month, and also still have my VDSL from A&A.
I have been finding some technical issues with Giganet, and would be interested
to compare notes with others.
Giganet themselves are appallingly unresponsive in the support department.

Tell us the problems and we can speculate ...

[Tony Mountifield]

Post by Graham J

Post by Tony Mountifield
Just wondering if anyone here is using Giganet full fibre, and particularly
interested in any who are using their own router instead of the supplied
Amazon eero router.
I've had it for about a month, and also still have my VDSL from A&A.
I have been finding some technical issues with Giganet, and would be interested
to compare notes with others.
Giganet themselves are appallingly unresponsive in the support department.

Tell us the problems and we can speculate ...
--
Graham J

Well, there's a lot to say, and I haven't finished diagnosing yet, but I have some
initial suspicions.

Our Samsung smart TV (wired LAN connection) works completely fine when connected to
the Vigor 2860n+ on the A&A VDSL connection.

It also works when connected to the supplied eero router that's on the Giganet fibre.

But when I connected the Vigor's WAN2 to the Giganet fibre instead, many services on
the smart TV stopped working. iPlayer worked, but any ad-supported service such as
UKTVplay or C4 would allow me to navigate to a program, but on playing a program, it
would hang without showing the initial adverts, and the advert timer didn't count down.

I've bought a new Vigor 2927ac to use, and that behaves the same (I don't want to use
the eero router, as I want other features provided by the Vigor).

I have set up a Netgear managed switch with two VLANs, one for the WAN connection and
one for the LAN, with port mirroring so I can monitor the packet activity on both the
LAN and WAN sides using Wireshark.

My conclusion is that the problem is DNS unreliability within Giganet, particularly
in resolving the CDN serving the adverts. The UKTVplay app appears to send a DNS A
query and AAAA query immediately one after the other. When connected to A&A, both
queries get replied to, the A query giving an IP address (via a couple of CNAMEs),
and the AAAA indicating that there is no IPv6 address. That's all fine.

When connected to Giganet instead, the same two queries get sent, but only the AAAA
request gets a response. There is no response to the A query. The TV then stalls because
it can't resolve the DNS to play the advert. If just an A query is sent (in other
scenarios), it does get responded to.

This seems to be the case whether I allow the router to use the DNS resolvers given
by the PPPoE (8.8.8.8 and 1.1.1.1), or manually specify Giganet's own resolvers
(37.48.224.26 and 185.102.149.13) that they give on their website FAQ under
https://www.giganet.uk/faq/how-to-use-my-own-router/

So, I wondered, why does it work when I use the error router? It turns out that the
eero doesn't use DNS protocol at all on the WAN side. LAN clients are told to use
the eero itself as their resolver (192.168.4.1), and packet tracing reveals that on
the WAN side, it uses HTTPS to dns1.eerodns.com to lookup the address. I think that
is so that it can do clever filtering, parental control, etc., on behalf of the router.
But it does mean that the eero is no using Giganet at all for UDP/DNS.

Since Giganet are so unresponsive for even simple queries (they seem to leave tickets
unresponded to until they time out and close after 30 days), I have very little confidence
that they would take any interest in a detailed and deep technical fault report.

Suggestions?

Cheers
Tony

[David Wade]

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by Graham J

Post by Tony Mountifield
Just wondering if anyone here is using Giganet full fibre, and particularly
interested in any who are using their own router instead of the supplied
Amazon eero router.
I've had it for about a month, and also still have my VDSL from A&A.
I have been finding some technical issues with Giganet, and would be interested
to compare notes with others.
Giganet themselves are appallingly unresponsive in the support department.

Tell us the problems and we can speculate ...
--
Graham J

Well, there's a lot to say, and I haven't finished diagnosing yet, but I have some
initial suspicions.
Our Samsung smart TV (wired LAN connection) works completely fine when connected to
the Vigor 2860n+ on the A&A VDSL connection.
It also works when connected to the supplied eero router that's on the Giganet fibre.
But when I connected the Vigor's WAN2 to the Giganet fibre instead, many services on
the smart TV stopped working. iPlayer worked, but any ad-supported service such as
UKTVplay or C4 would allow me to navigate to a program, but on playing a program, it
would hang without showing the initial adverts, and the advert timer didn't count down.
I've bought a new Vigor 2927ac to use, and that behaves the same (I don't want to use
the eero router, as I want other features provided by the Vigor).
I have set up a Netgear managed switch with two VLANs, one for the WAN connection and
one for the LAN, with port mirroring so I can monitor the packet activity on both the
LAN and WAN sides using Wireshark.
My conclusion is that the problem is DNS unreliability within Giganet, particularly
in resolving the CDN serving the adverts. The UKTVplay app appears to send a DNS A
query and AAAA query immediately one after the other. When connected to A&A, both
queries get replied to, the A query giving an IP address (via a couple of CNAMEs),
and the AAAA indicating that there is no IPv6 address. That's all fine.
When connected to Giganet instead, the same two queries get sent, but only the AAAA
request gets a response. There is no response to the A query. The TV then stalls because
it can't resolve the DNS to play the advert. If just an A query is sent (in other
scenarios), it does get responded to.
This seems to be the case whether I allow the router to use the DNS resolvers given
by the PPPoE (8.8.8.8 and 1.1.1.1), or manually specify Giganet's own resolvers
(37.48.224.26 and 185.102.149.13) that they give on their website FAQ under
https://www.giganet.uk/faq/how-to-use-my-own-router/
So, I wondered, why does it work when I use the error router? It turns out that the
eero doesn't use DNS protocol at all on the WAN side. LAN clients are told to use
the eero itself as their resolver (192.168.4.1), and packet tracing reveals that on
the WAN side, it uses HTTPS to dns1.eerodns.com to lookup the address. I think that
is so that it can do clever filtering, parental control, etc., on behalf of the router.
But it does mean that the eero is no using Giganet at all for UDP/DNS.

there is a standard for DNS over HTTPS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_over_HTTPS

Post by Tony Mountifield
Since Giganet are so unresponsive for even simple queries (they seem to leave tickets
unresponded to until they time out and close after 30 days), I have very little confidence
that they would take any interest in a detailed and deep technical fault report.
Suggestions?

Won't the vigour do DNS over HTTPS?

Post by Tony Mountifield
Cheers
Tony

Dave

[Tony Mountifield]

Post by David Wade

So, I wondered, why does it work when I use the eero router? It turns out that the
eero doesn't use DNS protocol at all on the WAN side. LAN clients are told to use
the eero itself as their resolver (192.168.4.1), and packet tracing reveals that on
the WAN side, it uses HTTPS to dns1.eerodns.com to lookup the address. I think that
is so that it can do clever filtering, parental control, etc., on behalf of the router.
But it does mean that the eero is no using Giganet at all for UDP/DNS.

there is a standard for DNS over HTTPS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_over_HTTPS

Yes, I knew it exists, but had never studied it. I don't doubt that the eero uses the
DNS over HTTPS standard. It does mean that it masks any deficiencies in Giganet's handling
of standard UDP DNS traffic.

Post by David Wade

Since Giganet are so unresponsive for even simple queries (they seem to leave tickets
unresponded to until they time out and close after 30 days), I have very little confidence
that they would take any interest in a detailed and deep technical fault report.
Suggestions?

Won't the vigour do DNS over HTTPS?

Not to my knowledge. But my point is that it shouldn't be necessary, and Giganet should
correctly and reliably handle DNS requests and responses like any other reputable ISP does.

Cheers
Tony

[David Wade]

Post by Tony Mountifield

Post by David Wade

So, I wondered, why does it work when I use the eero router? It turns out that the
eero doesn't use DNS protocol at all on the WAN side. LAN clients are told to use
the eero itself as their resolver (192.168.4.1), and packet tracing reveals that on
the WAN side, it uses HTTPS to dns1.eerodns.com to lookup the address. I think that
is so that it can do clever filtering, parental control, etc., on behalf of the router.
But it does mean that the eero is no using Giganet at all for UDP/DNS.

there is a standard for DNS over HTTPS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_over_HTTPS

Yes, I knew it exists, but had never studied it. I don't doubt that the eero uses the
DNS over HTTPS standard. It does mean that it masks any deficiencies in Giganet's handling
of standard UDP DNS traffic.

Post by David Wade

Since Giganet are so unresponsive for even simple queries (they seem to leave tickets
unresponded to until they time out and close after 30 days), I have very little confidence
that they would take any interest in a detailed and deep technical fault report.
Suggestions?

Won't the vigour do DNS over HTTPS?

Not to my knowledge. But my point is that it shouldn't be necessary, and Giganet should
correctly and reliably handle DNS requests and responses like any other reputable ISP does.

Not sure that is true. Several of the other major use DNS subversion to
implement site blocking as imposed by court orders. e.g.

https://community.bt.com/t5/Archive-Staging/Potential-DNS-issue/td-p/2152881

Post by Tony Mountifield
Cheers
Tony

Dave

[Graham J]

Tony Mountifield wrote:

[snip]

Post by Tony Mountifield
Not to my knowledge. But my point is that it shouldn't be necessary, and Giganet should
correctly and reliably handle DNS requests and responses like any other reputable ISP does.

So why do you want to use Giganet when the Vigor 2860n+ on the A&A VDSL
connection works pefectly?

Possibly the Giganet is very much faster than VDSL?

Is the Giganet delivered over an Openreach fibre? Can you change to a
different ISP (A&A perhaps) and use the same fibre?

Or:

Connect all your clients to the Vigor router, and its WAN2 port to the
eero router. Keep the A&A VDSL service connected to the Vigor's WAN1 port.

Configure the Vigor so that DNS requests are sent out via WAN1, but all
other traffic goes out from WAN2 and hence via the eero router to Giganet.

[Tony Mountifield]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Tony Mountifield
Not to my knowledge. But my point is that it shouldn't be necessary, and Giganet should
correctly and reliably handle DNS requests and responses like any other reputable ISP does.

So why do you want to use Giganet when the Vigor 2860n+ on the A&A VDSL
connection works pefectly?
Possibly the Giganet is very much faster than VDSL?

The Giganet is 900/900, and after my free introductory period would be cheaper than A&A.
I could also opt to drop down to 500/500 or 150/150 for slightly cheaper cost.

My VDSL (now on SOGEA) from A&A is about 35/6, which has served me well for probably 10 years.
But the extra speed is attractive, and I'm hoping for lower latency too, for real-time music
using Jamulus.

Post by Graham J
Is the Giganet delivered over an Openreach fibre? Can you change to a
different ISP (A&A perhaps) and use the same fibre?

No, Giganet are the only provider installing fibre at my location (Winchester), and
don't seem to have any wholesale agreements with any other providers. Openreach don't
have my area on their todo list yet.

The other issue is that Giganet have me on CGNAT. They can apparently provide static IP non-NAT,
but they have not yet replied to my ticket asking about one. I wouldn't be surprised if the DNS
traffic issue is caused by their CGNAT gateway. If I can get a static IP and the issue goes away,
that would suggest as much. We'll see....

Post by Graham J
Connect all your clients to the Vigor router, and its WAN2 port to the
eero router. Keep the A&A VDSL service connected to the Vigor's WAN1 port.
Configure the Vigor so that DNS requests are sent out via WAN1, but all
other traffic goes out from WAN2 and hence via the eero router to Giganet.

Not sure that would work, especially since the plan is to discontinue the VDSL once the fibre
connection is working properly. And going from the Vigor via the eero would introduce yet
another level of NAT.

I could maybe subscribe to A&A's L2TP service via the Giganet connection, but that would mean
paying two ISP subscriptions, which would be rather expensive and exravagant. It would also
increase latency.

What I'd really like to do is work with Giganet to get their connection operating reliably
with the professional-grade router that is the Vigor. There should be no need to use the eero.

Cheers
Tony

[Graham J]

Tony Mountifield wrote:

[snip]

Post by Tony Mountifield
What I'd really like to do is work with Giganet to get their connection operating reliably
with the professional-grade router that is the Vigor. There should be no need to use the eero.

If the supplier doesn't offer what you want then your only option is to
change supplier. Since there is apparently no other supplier, you are
stuffed. Giganet clearly don't want you.

Given that you want more features than are supplied by Giganet then you
are perhaps running a small business. So you have to be prepared to pay
more than the average domestic user would.

So you retain the A&A service (or something slightly cheaper from
perhaps Zen) and use the DNS routing suggestion I made, and tolerate the
double NAT and the extra latency.

This might be short-term (say a couple of years) by which time Openreach
might install their own fibre. Alternatively OFCOM may say that because
domestic users can be served by Giganet then Openreach will not be
obliged to install any fibre whatever, and can walk away from all the
copper infrastructure carrying voice calls.

Or you could move house ...

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Graham J
If the supplier doesn't offer what you want then your only option
is to change supplier. Since there is apparently no other
supplier, you are stuffed.
So you retain the A&A service (or something slightly cheaper

Or experiment with the Andrews and Arnold L2TP service, this uses a tunnel over
your horrible CGNAT connection from a minor fibre supplier to A&A, where you
get proper fixed IPv4 and IPv6 addresses and support.

https://www.aa.net.uk/broadband/l2tp-service/

From £10/month for domestic. You need a router able to do L2TP.

Essentially L2TP is how PPPoE works with VDSL/FTTC, you have a tunnel through
Openreach and/or TalkTalk to your real ISP.

Angus

[Graham J]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

Post by Graham J
If the supplier doesn't offer what you want then your only option
is to change supplier. Since there is apparently no other
supplier, you are stuffed.
So you retain the A&A service (or something slightly cheaper

Or experiment with the Andrews and Arnold L2TP service, this uses a tunnel over
your horrible CGNAT connection from a minor fibre supplier to A&A, where you
get proper fixed IPv4 and IPv6 addresses and support.
https://www.aa.net.uk/broadband/l2tp-service/
From £10/month for domestic. You need a router able to do L2TP.
Essentially L2TP is how PPPoE works with VDSL/FTTC, you have a tunnel through
Openreach and/or TalkTalk to your real ISP.

So is that what the VLAN tag=101 is for in the VDSL settings?

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Graham J
So is that what the VLAN tag=101 is for in the VDSL settings?

Sorry, no idea what that does, just that VDSL terminates on what my ISP calls
an L2TP server.

Many ISPs use A&A rack mounted FireBrick L2TP LNS servers to terminate ADSL and
VDSL customers.

Angus

[Tony Mountifield]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

Post by Graham J
If the supplier doesn't offer what you want then your only option
is to change supplier. Since there is apparently no other
supplier, you are stuffed.
So you retain the A&A service (or something slightly cheaper

Or experiment with the Andrews and Arnold L2TP service, this uses a tunnel over
your horrible CGNAT connection from a minor fibre supplier to A&A, where you
get proper fixed IPv4 and IPv6 addresses and support.
https://www.aa.net.uk/broadband/l2tp-service/
From £10/month for domestic. You need a router able to do L2TP.
Essentially L2TP is how PPPoE works with VDSL/FTTC, you have a tunnel through
Openreach and/or TalkTalk to your real ISP.
Angus

Thanks for the link. I had thought the L2TP service from A&A was more expensive
than that, so it's worth exploring. Interestingly, as I currently have broadband
from A&A, it says I can connect to L2TP using the same credentials. So that gives
me the ability to test it before committing.

I wonder if a single Vigor can do both the PPPoE to Giganet and the L2TP to A&A?
Something to investigate.

Cheers
Tony

[Graham J]

Tony Mountifield wrote:

[snip]

Post by Tony Mountifield
I wonder if a single Vigor can do both the PPPoE to Giganet and the L2TP to A&A?
Something to investigate.

I think L2TP is carried over the Ethernet path. It's one of several VPN
options.

So your Vigor connects to Giganet using PPPoE, and you create a VPN
using L2TP to the A&A server. Specify that it is "alway on". All your
outgoing traffic uses the VPN and appears to the outside world to come
from the static IP that A&A gives you.

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Interestingly, as I currently have broadband from A&A,
it says I can connect to L2TP using the same credentials.

Yes, you can the L2TP service with your spare mobile data SIM when your main
fibre service goes down, while keeping the same external IP addresses as if
nothing has changed, perhaps if you run your own mail server.

Angus

[Tony Mountifield]

Post by Tony Mountifield
The other issue is that Giganet have me on CGNAT. They can apparently provide static IP non-NAT,
but they have not yet replied to my ticket asking about one. I wouldn't be surprised if the DNS
traffic issue is caused by their CGNAT gateway. If I can get a static IP and the issue goes away,
that would suggest as much. We'll see....

Well, this does indeed appear to be the case. I finally managed successfully to request and receive
a static IP last night, and now the connection is directly routed from my router WAN to the internet
without passing through Giganet's CGNAT kit. Surprise, surprise, the smart TV now works fine and
the DNS problems I had observed have gone away.

So I'm happy for myself. I will still put some effort into reporting the details of the problem
to Giganet, even though it no longer affects my own connection.

Cheers
Tony