Zen

[David Rance]

Cityfibre have just finished installing their full fibre in my road
(thank goodness - getting in and out of my house was something of a
trial while it lasted) and have now told me that I can now apply for
FTTP.

They list all the ISPs that can supply this in my area. IDNet is one and
I already have FTTC with them. I've been with them since 2010 and have
always been quite satisfied. However I see that Zen is also available
for roughly the same price so, bearing in mind the praise that people
give it, would it be worth my while to jump ship at this point?

I suppose that Zen supply static IPs? IDNet give them as a matter of
course.

David

[Davey]

On Sun, 7 May 2023 16:24:43 +0100

Post by David Rance
Cityfibre have just finished installing their full fibre in my road
(thank goodness - getting in and out of my house was something of a
trial while it lasted) and have now told me that I can now apply for
FTTP.
They list all the ISPs that can supply this in my area. IDNet is one
and I already have FTTC with them. I've been with them since 2010 and
have always been quite satisfied. However I see that Zen is also
available for roughly the same price so, bearing in mind the praise
that people give it, would it be worth my while to jump ship at this
point?
I suppose that Zen supply static IPs? IDNet give them as a matter of
course.
David

Quote https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband

"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

[Graham J]

Post by Davey
On Sun, 7 May 2023 16:24:43 +0100

Post by David Rance
Cityfibre have just finished installing their full fibre in my road
(thank goodness - getting in and out of my house was something of a
trial while it lasted) and have now told me that I can now apply for
FTTP.
They list all the ISPs that can supply this in my area. IDNet is one
and I already have FTTC with them. I've been with them since 2010 and
have always been quite satisfied. However I see that Zen is also
available for roughly the same price so, bearing in mind the praise
that people give it, would it be worth my while to jump ship at this
point?
I suppose that Zen supply static IPs? IDNet give them as a matter of
course.
David

Quote https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address. So if you are reliant on your IDNet address, stay
with them ...

Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router. So if you need the static IP
for sophisticated features like VPN or remote management & monitoring,
then choose an alternative VoIP solution.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Graham J

Post by Davey
Quote https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address. So if you are reliant on your IDNet address, stay
with them ...

My Zen account has an associated email address, and ten more I can
supposedly configure, but I never use them.

Post by Graham J
Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router.

I've seen dicussions of using it without, but I haven't tried it myself.

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/4731028-own-router-and-digital-voice-methods.html?fpart=all&vc=1

-- Richard

[Woody]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Graham J

Post by Davey
Quote https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address. So if you are reliant on your IDNet address, stay
with them ...

My Zen account has an associated email address, and ten more I can
supposedly configure, but I never use them.

Post by Graham J
Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router.

I've seen dicussions of using it without, but I haven't tried it myself.
https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/4731028-own-router-and-digital-voice-methods.html?fpart=all&vc=1

Long standing users of Zen had and still will have an email service, but
they withdrew it for new customers some time ago. Their argument is that
many people regularly change ISP which causes major problems with email
addresses.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Woody
Long standing users of Zen had and still will have an email service, but
they withdrew it for new customers some time ago.

Ah, I didn't know that (being a long-standing user).

-- Richard

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Woody
Long standing users of Zen had and still will have an email service, but
they withdrew it for new customers some time ago. Their argument is that
many people regularly change ISP which causes major problems with email
addresses.

It's a good argument but could cause problems for those who don't like
using free email accounts because of privacy concerns.

[Graham J]

Post by Graham J

Post by Davey
Quote https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address.

*** With new connections ***

[Graham J]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Graham J

Post by Davey
Quote https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address. So if you are reliant on your IDNet address, stay
with them ...

My Zen account has an associated email address, and ten more I can
supposedly configure, but I never use them.

Post by Graham J
Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router.

I've seen dicussions of using it without, but I haven't tried it myself.
https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/4731028-own-router-and-digital-voice-methods.html?fpart=all&vc=1

Voipfone now say (as of this week): "What with the wholesale switch away
from analogue lines, we can now retrieve the number up to 30 days after
it has been disconnected".

If you tell your existing ISP that you want the "Broadband only" option
and not "Digital Voice" (or whatever equivalent name your ISP uses) then
the existing phone number will be disconnected and you can port it to
Voipfone. Presumably this will be true for other VoIP providers

A new account from Zen will be SOGEA regardless of whether it is FTTP or
FTTC or ADSL, so it will be broadband only.

It's all a real mess!

[David Wade]

Post by Graham J

Post by Davey
Quote https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address. So if you are reliant on your IDNet address, stay
with them ...

mms, and ten more I can
supposedly configure, but I never use them.

Legacy service. New users do not receive any Zen e-mail service

Post by Graham J
Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router.

I've seen dicussions of using it without, but I haven't tried it myself.
https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/4731028-own-router-and-digital-voice-methods.html?fpart=all&vc=1

Apparently they have now locked things down so this no longer works...

...so who said they were not like other ISPs...
... all this lock in seems pretty standard ....

-- Richard

Dave

[grinch]

Post by David Wade

Quote  https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address.  So if you are reliant on your IDNet address, stay
with them ...

mms, and ten more I can
supposedly configure, but I never use them.

Legacy service. New users do not receive any Zen e-mail service

Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router.

Works really well if you know how to use it.

Post by David Wade

I've seen discussions of using it without, but I haven't tried it myself.
https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/4731028-own-router-and-digital-voice-methods.html?fpart=all&vc=1

Apparently they have now locked things down so this no longer works...
...so who said they were not like other ISPs...
... all this lock in seems pretty standard ....

-- Richard

Stops the great unwashed from tying up tech support trying to fix
problems they have created.

I have always thought it the height of ignorance expecting your ISP's
tech support to fix an issue on a router they have not sold to you and
or tested.

Post by David Wade
Dave

[Brian Gregory]

Post by grinch

Post by David Wade

Quote  https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address.  So if you are reliant on your IDNet address, stay
with them ...

mms, and ten more I can
supposedly configure, but I never use them.

Legacy service. New users do not receive any Zen e-mail service

Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router.

Works really well if you know how to use it.

Yes and that is a problem, Fritz has different terminology for various
things that need to be deciphered.

e.g. What normal people call "Port Forwarding", Fritz call, as far as I
can tell, "Port Sharing".

Also for some of the people, like me, who are attracted to Zen for
technical reasons the Fritz box is just too basic and too locked down.

Post by grinch
....

[Abandoned_Trolley]

Post by Brian Gregory
Yes and that is a problem, Fritz has different terminology for various
things that need to be deciphered.
e.g. What normal people call "Port Forwarding", Fritz call, as far as I
can tell, "Port Sharing".

And at least one other router manufacturer calls "Virtual Server"

take your pick :-\

[Graham J]

Post by grinch

Post by David Wade

Quote  https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address.  So if you are reliant on your IDNet address, stay
with them ...

mms, and ten more I can
supposedly configure, but I never use them.

Legacy service. New users do not receive any Zen e-mail service

Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router.

Works really well if you know how to use it.

But the Fritzbox:

- Does not respond reliably to pings from the internet, so useless if
you need to remotely monitor the reliability of a connection - this is
essential for proper customer support of ADSL, necessary for FTTC, but
hopefully should not be necessary for FTTP.

- No capability for LAN-to-LAN VPNs, so again no use for a proper level
of customer support.

However, the built-in proprietary "Digigal Voice" capability, and WiFi
mesh capability, those do make it a good one stop solution for an ISP
with unsophisticated customers. Which I why I am surprised that Zen
offer it!

[Roderick Stewart]

On Wed, 10 May 2023 08:35:09 +0100, Graham J <***@nowhere.co.uk>
wrote:

[re the Fritzbox]

Post by Graham J
However, the built-in proprietary "Digigal Voice" capability, and WiFi
mesh capability, those do make it a good one stop solution for an ISP
with unsophisticated customers. Which I why I am surprised that Zen
offer it!

Why is it surprising that a company would offer a piece of technology
that is easy to set up, works reliably, and does everything that nealy
all of their customers require?

The fact that it can work with ADSL, VDSL and fibre means that they
can issue the same equipment to all their customers regardless of
upgrade status, which must make it logistically easier to provide help
over the phone.

I received my Fritzbox 7530 about a fortnight before the digital
upgrade, so was able to try its performance on VDSL (FTTC) in
comparison with the Draytek 2762ac I'd been using before. Not only was
its VDSL downstream speed slightly faster, but the wi-fi coverage is
more consistent throughout my house. I think it's misleading to
denounce it as rubbish for lack of some obscure feature hardly anyone
would want, or because the phone system is proprietory. I can use my
computers on the internet, I can stream TV programmes, and I can use
the phone, and everything works.

Rod.

[Davey]

On Wed, 10 May 2023 10:51:04 +0100

Post by Roderick Stewart
[re the Fritzbox]

Post by Graham J
However, the built-in proprietary "Digigal Voice" capability, and
WiFi mesh capability, those do make it a good one stop solution for
an ISP with unsophisticated customers. Which I why I am surprised
that Zen offer it!

Why is it surprising that a company would offer a piece of technology
that is easy to set up, works reliably, and does everything that nealy
all of their customers require?
The fact that it can work with ADSL, VDSL and fibre means that they
can issue the same equipment to all their customers regardless of
upgrade status, which must make it logistically easier to provide help
over the phone.
I received my Fritzbox 7530 about a fortnight before the digital
upgrade, so was able to try its performance on VDSL (FTTC) in
comparison with the Draytek 2762ac I'd been using before. Not only was
its VDSL downstream speed slightly faster, but the wi-fi coverage is
more consistent throughout my house. I think it's misleading to
denounce it as rubbish for lack of some obscure feature hardly anyone
would want, or because the phone system is proprietory. I can use my
computers on the internet, I can stream TV programmes, and I can use
the phone, and everything works.
Rod.

Hear, hear! I am unabashedly an unsophisticated customer, and it works
for me just fine. As it probably does for the majority of its users.
If you need something more sophisticated, then, yes, buy yourself such a
device.

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Post by Graham J

Post by grinch

Post by David Wade

Quote  https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address.  So if you are reliant on your IDNet address, stay
with them ...

mms, and ten more I can
supposedly configure, but I never use them.

Legacy service. New users do not receive any Zen e-mail service

Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router.

Works really well if you know how to use it.

- Does not respond reliably to pings from the internet, so useless if
you need to remotely monitor the reliability of a connection - this is
essential for proper customer support of ADSL, necessary for FTTC, but
hopefully should not be necessary for FTTP.

No. As the TSA says, this should be in a management overlay not in
userland

[Theo]

Post by Graham J
- Does not respond reliably to pings from the internet, so useless if
you need to remotely monitor the reliability of a connection - this is
essential for proper customer support of ADSL, necessary for FTTC, but
hopefully should not be necessary for FTTP.
- No capability for LAN-to-LAN VPNs, so again no use for a proper level
of customer support.
However, the built-in proprietary "Digigal Voice" capability, and WiFi
mesh capability, those do make it a good one stop solution for an ISP
with unsophisticated customers. Which I why I am surprised that Zen
offer it!

FYI it's possible to install OpenWRT on the 7520 and 7530 (not 7530 AX), and
they recently gained VDSL support. So it is possible to install an
alternative, more flexible, OS on them. I think the phone ports aren't
supported, though, and that wouldn't let you use Zen's locked down VOIP
service anyway.

Theo
(considering them as an upgrade from a BT Homehub 5a)

[David Rance]

Post by Graham J

Post by Davey
On Sun, 7 May 2023 16:24:43 +0100

Post by David Rance
Cityfibre have just finished installing their full fibre in my road
(thank goodness - getting in and out of my house was something of a
trial while it lasted) and have now told me that I can now apply for
FTTP.
They list all the ISPs that can supply this in my area. IDNet is one
and I already have FTTC with them. I've been with them since 2010 and
have always been quite satisfied. However I see that Zen is also
available for roughly the same price so, bearing in mind the praise
that people give it, would it be worth my while to jump ship at this
point?
I suppose that Zen supply static IPs? IDNet give them as a matter of
course.
David

Quote https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
"All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address. So if you are reliant on your IDNet address,
stay with them ...

No problem. I have my own domains and run my own mail server. However, I
did wonder whether I would lose the IDNet address if I went full fibre
with them as it would be a new contract. Although I don't use it, it
gives me peace of mind knowing that I have it should anything happen to
my mail server.

Post by Graham J
Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router. So if you need the static
IP for sophisticated features like VPN or remote management &
monitoring, then choose an alternative VoIP solution.

I noticed that they offered a Fritzbox which made me wonder. Yes, I do
use VPN as well as running the mail server and a web server. However I
would want continue using my Vigor 2860. Although not listed as usable
with full fibre (I suppose because it has been superseded by a newer
model) I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work as long as I connect
to WAN2 from the ONT. VOIP? I haven't really started to think about that
yet. I suppose I should!

Many thanks for those points. And thanks to all who have replied. You've
given me food for thought.

I don't know whether Trustpilot is useful here but I notice that recent
comments about both IDNet and Zen have complained about poor service. I
don't know how much importance I should attach to them as everyone has
an off day. I've never had a problem with IDNet in thirteen years so I
haven't really tested their attention to complaints. Oh, now I do
remember one occasion when they turned off my ability to edit my web
site with them (I do use that from time to time even though I have my
own web server). A phone call soon put that right - but that was some
years ago!

David

[Woody]

Post by David Rance

Post by Davey
On Sun, 7 May 2023 16:24:43 +0100

Post by David Rance
Cityfibre have just finished installing their full fibre in my road
(thank goodness - getting in and out of my house was something of a
trial while it lasted) and have now told me that I can now apply for
FTTP.
They list all the ISPs that can supply this in my area. IDNet is one
and I already have FTTC with them. I've been with them since 2010 and
have always been quite satisfied. However I see that Zen is also
available for roughly the same price so, bearing in mind the praise
that people give it, would it be worth my while to jump ship at this
point?
I suppose that Zen supply static IPs? IDNet give them as a matter of
course.
David

 Quote  https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/superfast-fibre-broadband
 "All our packages offer Static IP addresses".

But no email address.  So if you are reliant on your IDNet address,
stay with them ...

No problem. I have my own domains and run my own mail server. However, I
did wonder whether I would lose the IDNet address if I went full fibre
with them as it would be a new contract. Although I don't use it, it
gives me peace of mind knowing that I have it should anything happen to
my mail server.

Zen also offer VoIP in the form of their "Digital Voice" which only
works with their horrible Fritzbox router.  So if you need the static
IP for sophisticated features like VPN or remote management &
monitoring, then choose an alternative VoIP solution.

I noticed that they offered a Fritzbox which made me wonder. Yes, I do
use VPN as well as running the mail server and a web server. However I
would want continue using my Vigor 2860. Although not listed as usable
with full fibre (I suppose because it has been superseded by a newer
model) I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work as long as I connect
to WAN2 from the ONT. VOIP? I haven't really started to think about that
yet. I suppose I should!
Many thanks for those points. And thanks to all who have replied. You've
given me food for thought.
I don't know whether Trustpilot is useful here but I notice that recent
comments about both IDNet and Zen have complained about poor service. I
don't know how much importance I should attach to them as everyone has
an off day. I've never had a problem with IDNet in thirteen years so I
haven't really tested their attention to complaints. Oh, now I do
remember one occasion when they turned off my ability to edit my web
site with them (I do use that from time to time even though I have my
own web server). A phone call soon put that right - but that was some
years ago!

One should always remember that most people that contribute to TP and
the like and are complaining are either wrong themselves or are just
moaners and either way are definitely in the minority!

[Bob Eager]

Post by Woody
One should always remember that most people that contribute to TP and
the like and are complaining are either wrong themselves or are just
moaners and either way are definitely in the minority!

I gave up doing reviews after they accused me of forgery. It turned out
that was because I used several email addresses (one for each vendor, as I
do).

I told them to delete all my reviews and I wouldn't do any more.

They were confused.

[Graham J]

David Rance wrote:

[snip]

Post by David Rance
I noticed that they offered a Fritzbox which made me wonder. Yes, I do
use VPN as well as running the mail server and a web server. However I
would want continue using my Vigor 2860. Although not listed as usable
with full fibre (I suppose because it has been superseded by a newer
model) I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work as long as I connect
to WAN2 from the ONT. VOIP? I haven't really started to think about that
yet. I suppose I should!

I have a Vigor 2860 working with full fibre from Zen. Put the Zen
credentials in the WAN2 settings, and connect WAN2 to the Openreach
optical modem using an Ethernet cable.

You should think about VoIP. I use <https://www.voipfone.co.uk/> and it
works OK for me.

[David Rance]

Post by Graham J

Post by David Rance
I noticed that they offered a Fritzbox which made me wonder. Yes, I
do use VPN as well as running the mail server and a web server.
However I would want continue using my Vigor 2860. Although not
listed as usable with full fibre (I suppose because it has been
superseded by a newer model) I don't see any reason why it shouldn't
work as long as I connect to WAN2 from the ONT. VOIP? I haven't
really started to think about that yet. I suppose I should!

I have a Vigor 2860 working with full fibre from Zen. Put the Zen
credentials in the WAN2 settings, and connect WAN2 to the Openreach
optical modem using an Ethernet cable.

That's encouraging.

Post by Graham J
You should think about VoIP. I use <https://www.voipfone.co.uk/> and
it works OK for me.

I know you're right! ;-) And thanks for that link.

David

[Bob Eager]

Post by David Rance
I noticed that they offered a Fritzbox which made me wonder. Yes, I do
use VPN as well as running the mail server and a web server. However I
would want continue using my Vigor 2860. Although not listed as usable
with full fibre (I suppose because it has been superseded by a newer
model) I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work as long as I connect
to WAN2 from the ONT. VOIP? I haven't really started to think about that
yet. I suppose I should!

I had a Vigor 2860 when the changeover happened. I just plugged a short
cable from the ONT into the WAN2 (ethernet) port. It just worked.

I did see that the CPU was near maxing out at 300 Mb/s, so I decided to
upgrade to a 2866, keeping the 2860 as a fallback. That will serve me well
up to 1Gb/s if I upgrade in the future.

[David Rance]

Post by Bob Eager

Post by David Rance
I noticed that they offered a Fritzbox which made me wonder. Yes, I do
use VPN as well as running the mail server and a web server. However I
would want continue using my Vigor 2860. Although not listed as usable
with full fibre (I suppose because it has been superseded by a newer
model) I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work as long as I connect
to WAN2 from the ONT. VOIP? I haven't really started to think about that
yet. I suppose I should!

I had a Vigor 2860 when the changeover happened. I just plugged a short
cable from the ONT into the WAN2 (ethernet) port. It just worked.
I did see that the CPU was near maxing out at 300 Mb/s, so I decided to
upgrade to a 2866, keeping the 2860 as a fallback. That will serve me well
up to 1Gb/s if I upgrade in the future.

Ah, so full fibre will be stretching the 2860 to its limit which, I
suppose, is why it's not on Draytek's recommended list.

David

[Bob Eager]

Post by David Rance

Post by Bob Eager

Post by David Rance
I noticed that they offered a Fritzbox which made me wonder. Yes, I do
use VPN as well as running the mail server and a web server. However I
would want continue using my Vigor 2860. Although not listed as usable
with full fibre (I suppose because it has been superseded by a newer
model) I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work as long as I
connect to WAN2 from the ONT. VOIP? I haven't really started to think
about that yet. I suppose I should!

I had a Vigor 2860 when the changeover happened. I just plugged a short
cable from the ONT into the WAN2 (ethernet) port. It just worked.
I did see that the CPU was near maxing out at 300 Mb/s, so I decided to
upgrade to a 2866, keeping the 2860 as a fallback. That will serve me
well up to 1Gb/s if I upgrade in the future.

Ah, so full fibre will be stretching the 2860 to its limit which, I
suppose, is why it's not on Draytek's recommended list.

Depends on the speed. I went for FTTP at 300/50 as that was cost neutral
compared to FTTC. I wanted a good upload speed. The 100 down product would
have been fine, and I suspect the 300/50 wouldn't show that much of a
loss.

The 2860 was 10 years old, so I treated myself to the 2866! Configuration
pretty well identical.

[www.GymRatZ.co.uk]

Post by David Rance
I noticed that they offered a Fritzbox which made me wonder. Yes, I do
use VPN as well as running the mail server and a web server. However I
would want continue using my Vigor 2860. Although not listed as usable
with full fibre (I suppose because it has been superseded by a newer
model) I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work as long as I connect
to WAN2 from the ONT. VOIP? I haven't really started to think about that
yet. I suppose I should!

Different model but I have a 2920n formerly connected to ADSL2+ from Zen
through a Vigour modem and just hooked that into the Fibre ONT(?) on
Wan2, left Wan1 with the same account settings plugged into the modem to
keep ADSL connected with fail-over set for Wan2.
As soon as Zen switched from ADSL to Fibre everything just switched
seamlessly, 12 hours before Zen told me it had been connected.

I too have a permanent VPN connection (from home to the office) so
didn't want to ditch the Draytek. Only down side is the firewall speed
of my Draytek tops out at around 90Mbps downstream so it can't realise
anywhere close to the full potential of the "Full Fibre 300" package
downstream but is still good for 50Mbps upstream for VPN.
(No doubt the reason these older models are not listed as suitable for
full fibre)

:)

As for the Zen supplied FritzBox, that too was very usefull and works
for VoIP and as a network switch... Let me try and describe how I have
it being used.

I re-wired the "incoming" BT multi-pair copper back from the wall socket
to the telephone auto-dialer on the intruder alarm panel then simply
plugged in a standard supplied "telephone to adsl" patch lead between
the ADSL socket on the BT wall/face plate and the POTS VoIP port on the
Fritz Box and set up a couple of VoIP accounts within FritzBox
specifying Voip over network.

Now when the alarm is triggered the auto dialer DTMF dialing comes "OUT"
of the old BT ADSL wall/Face plate, "INTO" the FritzBox POTS port which
then dials out through the LAN, (via Draytek) and out into the big wide
world without any detectable delay.

I also have a Gigaset VoIP box plugged into the LAN and was worried
there might be some sort of conflict but no. The Alarm dials out
perfectly just as it did when going through BT copper, and the Gigaset
still gives 2 lines in/out without any issues.

It was a pleasant suprise when it worked perfectly first time.
:)