RCBO causing issues with broadband.

[Woody]

We had a kitchen extension built about 7 years ago and to save having to
rewire the rest of the house the sparky installed a separate power box
using RCBOs to feed the kitchen circuits.

I have a pair of TP-L powerline units in stock. When these were used
from the incoming point of the VM broadband, through the house wiring
into the garage (which is partly in the house), out of one power box and
into another via the existing wiring, and out over about 30m of 1.5mm
armoured cable to my shed, the incoming 100Mb ended in the shed at 40Mb
which worked well. The powerline unit was fed through an RCD at the shed
end.

I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.

I can thus only assume that the RCBOs are the cause of the problem as
they are the only difference between the two 'installations.'
Has anyone any ideas or experience of this sort of application and what
I could do to make it work properly without reconfiguring the kitchen
power box to use an RCD?

[Tweed]

Post by Woody
We had a kitchen extension built about 7 years ago and to save having to
rewire the rest of the house the sparky installed a separate power box
using RCBOs to feed the kitchen circuits.
I have a pair of TP-L powerline units in stock. When these were used
from the incoming point of the VM broadband, through the house wiring
into the garage (which is partly in the house), out of one power box and
into another via the existing wiring, and out over about 30m of 1.5mm
armoured cable to my shed, the incoming 100Mb ended in the shed at 40Mb
which worked well. The powerline unit was fed through an RCD at the shed
end.
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.
I can thus only assume that the RCBOs are the cause of the problem as
they are the only difference between the two 'installations.'
Has anyone any ideas or experience of this sort of application and what
I could do to make it work properly without reconfiguring the kitchen
power box to use an RCD?

The L and N conductors are wound onto a common ferrite ring in an RCD. That
can make an efficient HF filter, depending on the design and the
composition of the ferrite.

[Woody]

Post by Tweed

Post by Woody
We had a kitchen extension built about 7 years ago and to save having to
rewire the rest of the house the sparky installed a separate power box
using RCBOs to feed the kitchen circuits.
I have a pair of TP-L powerline units in stock. When these were used
from the incoming point of the VM broadband, through the house wiring
into the garage (which is partly in the house), out of one power box and
into another via the existing wiring, and out over about 30m of 1.5mm
armoured cable to my shed, the incoming 100Mb ended in the shed at 40Mb
which worked well. The powerline unit was fed through an RCD at the shed
end.
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.
I can thus only assume that the RCBOs are the cause of the problem as
they are the only difference between the two 'installations.'
Has anyone any ideas or experience of this sort of application and what
I could do to make it work properly without reconfiguring the kitchen
power box to use an RCD?

The L and N conductors are wound onto a common ferrite ring in an RCD. That
can make an efficient HF filter, depending on the design and the
composition of the ferrite.

As noted above the mains cable carrying powerline runs through a RCD as
it enters my shed which does not seen to have any sort of detrimental
effect.

Also note that my building wiring for the kitchen extension is run
through RCBOs which are a very different device to an RCD. For a start
they are only single pole.

[Graham J]

Woody wrote:

[snip]

Post by Woody
Also note that my building wiring for the kitchen extension is run
through RCBOs which are a very different device to an RCD. For a start
they are only single pole.

Both devices use a differential relay to detect the current imbalance
which indicates earth leakage. It is this component which probably
blocks the RF carrying the Powerline Ethernet signals, as described
earlier.

Some devices also detect overcurrent. Again, these are electromagnetic
in that they measure the current flowing through the live circuit - so
they will trip on excess load currents whether drawn Live to Neutral or
Live to Earth. Not sure they will trip on a Neutral to Earth excess
current, but such a fault would imply a supply-side wiring fault. Since
the sensitivity is in the 20A to 100A range (rather than 30mA) there
will be fewer turns of wire so the impedance at RF will be less and
might not affect the Powerline Ethernet signals.

I don't think the RCB/MCBO nomenclature is particularly clear; it is as
well to check the actual specification of the device you have.

There may be some capacitive coupling between the incoming and outgoing
wires which allows the RF to pass, so the Powerline Ethernet signals are
not so badly affected.

None of these RF-based communication methods (WiFi, Powerline Ethernet)
can be guaranteed to work ***in all circumstances***.

But properly installed Cat5 (or 5e or 6) can be designed to work in all
but very exceptional circumstances. I have seen it fail (with excessive
error rates) when installed under 132kV power lines - in such cases
fibre is the only option.

[Woody]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Woody
Also note that my building wiring for the kitchen extension is run
through RCBOs which are a very different device to an RCD. For a start
they are only single pole.

Both devices use a differential relay to detect the current imbalance
which indicates earth leakage.  It is this component which probably
blocks the RF carrying the Powerline Ethernet signals, as described
earlier.
Some devices also detect overcurrent.  Again, these are electromagnetic
in that they measure the current flowing through the live circuit - so
they will trip on excess load currents whether drawn Live to Neutral or
Live to Earth.  Not sure they will trip on a Neutral to Earth excess
current, but such a fault would imply a supply-side wiring fault.  Since
the sensitivity is in the 20A to 100A range (rather than 30mA) there
will be fewer turns of wire so the impedance at RF will be less and
might not affect the Powerline Ethernet signals.
I don't think the RCB/MCBO nomenclature is particularly clear; it is as
well to check the actual specification of the device you have.
There may be some capacitive coupling between the incoming and outgoing
wires which allows the RF to pass, so the Powerline Ethernet signals are
not so badly affected.
None of these RF-based communication methods (WiFi, Powerline Ethernet)
can be guaranteed to work ***in all circumstances***.
But properly installed Cat5 (or 5e or 6) can be designed to work in all
but very exceptional circumstances.  I have seen it fail (with excessive
error rates) when installed under 132kV power lines - in such cases
fibre is the only option.

Understood and agreed. The problem is that there is no way I can get an
Ethernet cable to the final position without either the cable being
visible (totally unacceptable to SWMBO) or digging it into the plaster.

I do however have a solution that could work well, and that is a TP-L
pocket router that plugs into the mains socket, picks up wi-fi and
provides the network on an Ethernet connection. It did work at first but
kept dropping out through lack of signal. I use a BTHH5 in the room
above configured as an access point so I moved it much closer to the
pocket router. Unfortunately that ended with it standing behind the
(wide plate) leg of a study table and screened the signal for another
part of the network. I'll get there in the end, its just a pain in the
neck!!

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Post by Woody

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Woody
Also note that my building wiring for the kitchen extension is run
through RCBOs which are a very different device to an RCD. For a start
they are only single pole.

Both devices use a differential relay to detect the current imbalance
which indicates earth leakage.  It is this component which probably
blocks the RF carrying the Powerline Ethernet signals, as described
earlier.
Some devices also detect overcurrent.  Again, these are electromagnetic
in that they measure the current flowing through the live circuit - so
they will trip on excess load currents whether drawn Live to Neutral or
Live to Earth.  Not sure they will trip on a Neutral to Earth excess
current, but such a fault would imply a supply-side wiring fault.  Since
the sensitivity is in the 20A to 100A range (rather than 30mA) there
will be fewer turns of wire so the impedance at RF will be less and
might not affect the Powerline Ethernet signals.
I don't think the RCB/MCBO nomenclature is particularly clear; it is as
well to check the actual specification of the device you have.
There may be some capacitive coupling between the incoming and outgoing
wires which allows the RF to pass, so the Powerline Ethernet signals are
not so badly affected.
None of these RF-based communication methods (WiFi, Powerline Ethernet)
can be guaranteed to work ***in all circumstances***.
But properly installed Cat5 (or 5e or 6) can be designed to work in all
but very exceptional circumstances.  I have seen it fail (with excessive
error rates) when installed under 132kV power lines - in such cases
fibre is the only option.

Understood and agreed. The problem is that there is no way I can get an
Ethernet cable to the final position without either the cable being
visible (totally unacceptable to SWMBO) or digging it into the plaster.
I do however have a solution that could work well, and that is a TP-L
pocket router that plugs into the mains socket, picks up wi-fi and
provides the network on an Ethernet connection. It did work at first but
kept dropping out through lack of signal. I use a BTHH5 in the room
above configured as an access point so I moved it much closer to the
pocket router. Unfortunately that ended with it standing behind the
(wide plate) leg of a study table and screened the signal for another
part of the network. I'll get there in the end, its just a pain in the
neck!!

I recently upgraded my home mesh system from BT Whole Home Wi-Fi to the
disks that come with EE "Super Wi-Fi" or whatever it is called. I have
the need for many fewer disks and I use the more remote one to provide
Ethernet to my Blu-Ray player and TV using a small switch.

[Tweed]

Post by Woody

Post by Tweed

Post by Woody
We had a kitchen extension built about 7 years ago and to save having to
rewire the rest of the house the sparky installed a separate power box
using RCBOs to feed the kitchen circuits.
I have a pair of TP-L powerline units in stock. When these were used
from the incoming point of the VM broadband, through the house wiring
into the garage (which is partly in the house), out of one power box and
into another via the existing wiring, and out over about 30m of 1.5mm
armoured cable to my shed, the incoming 100Mb ended in the shed at 40Mb
which worked well. The powerline unit was fed through an RCD at the shed
end.
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.
I can thus only assume that the RCBOs are the cause of the problem as
they are the only difference between the two 'installations.'
Has anyone any ideas or experience of this sort of application and what
I could do to make it work properly without reconfiguring the kitchen
power box to use an RCD?

The L and N conductors are wound onto a common ferrite ring in an RCD. That
can make an efficient HF filter, depending on the design and the
composition of the ferrite.

As noted above the mains cable carrying powerline runs through a RCD as
it enters my shed which does not seen to have any sort of detrimental
effect.
Also note that my building wiring for the kitchen extension is run
through RCBOs which are a very different device to an RCD. For a start
they are only single pole.

I don’t see how an RCBO can not use the neutral. It may only switch the
live, but it needs to see the neutral to detect a current imbalance.
Otherwise it is just a miniature circuit breaker, ie a posh fuse.

As mentioned, the device’s efficiency as an accidental HF filter will
depend on the design, which may explain why one works for power line and
the other doesn’t. Composition of the ferrite in the transformer is likely
to be the biggest influencing variable.

In principle, the design of the RCD imbalance transformer is the same as
mains filter, the latter designed to stop high frequencies from passing.

[Graham J]

Woody wrote:

[snip]

Post by Woody
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.

[snip]

Powerline Ethernet often doesn't work. Strange mains wiring can
contribute to this.

The only reliable way to get service in your kitchen will be to run Cat
5 cable from the router. Clearly this is something to be planned when
you next redecorate.

In the meantime a well-designed mesh WiFi arrangement might work. You
will need the sort that uses separate radio channels for the inter-node
backhaul so that the usual 2.4GHz and 5GHz channels are dedicated to
client connections. Such systems usually come with a controller to
manage how the nodes connect with the clients as the clients move about.
Worth getting professional advice - so expect it to be expensive.

Much cheaper to install Cat 5 cable ...

[Tweed]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Woody
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.

[snip]
Powerline Ethernet often doesn't work. Strange mains wiring can
contribute to this.
The only reliable way to get service in your kitchen will be to run Cat
5 cable from the router. Clearly this is something to be planned when
you next redecorate.
In the meantime a well-designed mesh WiFi arrangement might work. You
will need the sort that uses separate radio channels for the inter-node
backhaul so that the usual 2.4GHz and 5GHz channels are dedicated to
client connections. Such systems usually come with a controller to
manage how the nodes connect with the clients as the clients move about.
Worth getting professional advice - so expect it to be expensive.
Much cheaper to install Cat 5 cable ...

Mesh networks work well. No need for professional advice.

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Woody
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.

[snip]
Powerline Ethernet often doesn't work.  Strange mains wiring can contribute
to this.
The only reliable way to get service in your kitchen will be to run Cat 5
cable from the router.  Clearly this is something to be planned when you
next redecorate.

Have you found problems with fibre ?

[David Wade]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Woody
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.

[snip]
Powerline Ethernet often doesn't work.  Strange mains wiring can
contribute to this.
The only reliable way to get service in your kitchen will be to run
Cat 5 cable from the router.  Clearly this is something to be planned
when you next redecorate.

 Have you found problems with fibre ?

The issue for me with fibre is that its pre-terminated so you may need
larger holes to route cable. Also expensive....

Dave

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by David Wade

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Woody
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.

[snip]
Powerline Ethernet often doesn't work.  Strange mains wiring can
contribute to this.
The only reliable way to get service in your kitchen will be to run Cat
5 cable from the router.  Clearly this is something to be planned when
you next redecorate.

  Have you found problems with fibre ?

The issue for me with fibre is that its pre-terminated so you may need
larger holes to route cable. Also expensive....

CPC seeem to offer 20m patch cables for around £10 in fibre or Catx (but
obviously you need something at each end to plug into).

[NY]

In the meantime a well-designed mesh WiFi arrangement might work.  You
will need the sort that uses separate radio channels for the inter-node
backhaul so that the usual 2.4GHz and 5GHz channels are dedicated to
client connections.

Normally the backhaul between nodes is just another of the many
available channels in the 5 GHz spectrum - you aren't limited to just
the three non-overlapping channels of 2.4 GHz.

Such systems usually come with a controller to
manage how the nodes connect with the clients as the clients move about.
 Worth getting professional advice - so expect it to be expensive.
Much cheaper to install Cat 5 cable ...

Cheaper, but a lot more effort, particularly if you need to take the
wiring up a wall into roof space and then back down somewhere else, or
if you need to take it across a hardwood floor where you can't just tuck
it down the edge of a carpet by the skirting board.

The newer flat Cat5/6/7 cable is a lot easier to conceal under carpets
and to take through doorways than the older round cable is.

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Post by NY

In the meantime a well-designed mesh WiFi arrangement might work.  You
will need the sort that uses separate radio channels for the inter-node
backhaul so that the usual 2.4GHz and 5GHz channels are dedicated to
client connections.

Normally the backhaul between nodes is just another of the many
available channels in the 5 GHz spectrum - you aren't limited to just
the three non-overlapping channels of 2.4 GHz.

Such systems usually come with a controller to
manage how the nodes connect with the clients as the clients move about.
 Worth getting professional advice - so expect it to be expensive.
Much cheaper to install Cat 5 cable ...

Cheaper, but a lot more effort, particularly if you need to take the
wiring up a wall into roof space and then back down somewhere else, or
if you need to take it across a hardwood floor where you can't just tuck
it down the edge of a carpet by the skirting board.
The newer flat Cat5/6/7 cable is a lot easier to conceal under carpets
and to take through doorways than the older round cable is.

I do hope that people mean Cat5e or better. Cat5 only really supports
100Mb/s

[Theo]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Woody
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.

[snip]
Powerline Ethernet often doesn't work. Strange mains wiring can
contribute to this.

Even when it works, powerline is slow. Last time I looked you had a choice
of supposedly gigabit powerline, but actually <~50Mbps in practice, or
sooper-dooper-fancy powerline which claimed to go higher but was
substantially more expensive.

If you've tried the kit you have and it doesn't work, give up on powerline
and pick a different technology. If you have gigabit class broadband it's
likely to feel like old-school DSL on the end of a powerline connection -
it's not worth spending money on something that's barely usable today, let
alone in the future.

Post by Graham J
The only reliable way to get service in your kitchen will be to run Cat
5 cable from the router. Clearly this is something to be planned when
you next redecorate.
In the meantime a well-designed mesh WiFi arrangement might work. You
will need the sort that uses separate radio channels for the inter-node
backhaul so that the usual 2.4GHz and 5GHz channels are dedicated to
client connections. Such systems usually come with a controller to
manage how the nodes connect with the clients as the clients move about.
Worth getting professional advice - so expect it to be expensive.

The mesh units can figure things out by themselves (that's the idea of mesh)
- if your house is not a stadium with thousands of users then an off the
shelf system should be enough.

Post by Graham J
Much cheaper to install Cat 5 cable ...

More flexible, yes. More reliable, yes. Cheaper, no.

Theo

[Chris Green]

Post by Theo
The mesh units can figure things out by themselves (that's the idea of mesh)
- if your house is not a stadium with thousands of users then an off the
shelf system should be enough.

Post by Graham J
Much cheaper to install Cat 5 cable ...

More flexible, yes. More reliable, yes. Cheaper, no.

Much cheaper if you DIY, cat5e or better cable is *very* cheap and so
are the connectors and tools to crimp them.

[Graham J]

Post by Chris Green

Post by Theo
The mesh units can figure things out by themselves (that's the idea of mesh)
- if your house is not a stadium with thousands of users then an off the
shelf system should be enough.

Post by Graham J
Much cheaper to install Cat 5 cable ...

More flexible, yes. More reliable, yes. Cheaper, no.

Much cheaper if you DIY, cat5e or better cable is *very* cheap and so
are the connectors and tools to crimp them.

Worth getting a tester to confirm you've crimped the connectors correctly.

[Chris Green]

Post by Graham J

Post by Chris Green

Post by Theo
The mesh units can figure things out by themselves (that's the idea of mesh)
- if your house is not a stadium with thousands of users then an off the
shelf system should be enough.

Post by Graham J
Much cheaper to install Cat 5 cable ...

More flexible, yes. More reliable, yes. Cheaper, no.

Much cheaper if you DIY, cat5e or better cable is *very* cheap and so
are the connectors and tools to crimp them.

Worth getting a tester to confirm you've crimped the connectors correctly.

Yes, true, and they're very cheap too. Making your own Cat5/6 cables
also has the advantage that you can thread the cable through small
holes before crimping the connectors on the ends. Ready made ones are
so cheap that I really only make my own when the small holes
constraint applies! :-)

[Theo]

Post by Chris Green

Post by Theo
The mesh units can figure things out by themselves (that's the idea of mesh)
- if your house is not a stadium with thousands of users then an off the
shelf system should be enough.

Post by Graham J
Much cheaper to install Cat 5 cable ...

More flexible, yes. More reliable, yes. Cheaper, no.

Much cheaper if you DIY, cat5e or better cable is *very* cheap and so
are the connectors and tools to crimp them.

The cable is cheap, redoing the decorations after you've run it isn't
(including your labour if you DIY). Fair enough if you're happy to surface
run or have a convenient void you can run it in, but any time plaster is
involved things get expensive pretty quickly.

(I replaced skirting boards with skirting trunking which was one way to run
a lot of cables on the surface - the skirting needed replacing anyway)

Theo

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Post by Woody
We had a kitchen extension built about 7 years ago and to save having to
rewire the rest of the house the sparky installed a separate power box
using RCBOs to feed the kitchen circuits.
I have a pair of TP-L powerline units in stock. When these were used
from the incoming point of the VM broadband, through the house wiring
into the garage (which is partly in the house), out of one power box and
into another via the existing wiring, and out over about 30m of 1.5mm
armoured cable to my shed, the incoming 100Mb ended in the shed at 40Mb
which worked well. The powerline unit was fed through an RCD at the shed
end.
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.
I can thus only assume that the RCBOs are the cause of the problem as
they are the only difference between the two 'installations.'
Has anyone any ideas or experience of this sort of application and what
I could do to make it work properly without reconfiguring the kitchen
power box to use an RCD?

Just to be clear, do you still just have two Powerline units in total?
One attached by Ethernet to your network and the other in the kitchen.
I ask as having two Powerline devices attached to your network can
cause loops

[Woody]

Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt

Post by Woody
We had a kitchen extension built about 7 years ago and to save having to
rewire the rest of the house the sparky installed a separate power box
using RCBOs to feed the kitchen circuits.
I have a pair of TP-L powerline units in stock. When these were used
from the incoming point of the VM broadband, through the house wiring
into the garage (which is partly in the house), out of one power box and
into another via the existing wiring, and out over about 30m of 1.5mm
armoured cable to my shed, the incoming 100Mb ended in the shed at 40Mb
which worked well. The powerline unit was fed through an RCD at the shed
end.
I now have need to get broadband into the kitchen. I again fitted one
powerline unit next to the delivery point of the VM broadband, and
plugged the other unit in in the kitchen. It did connect but was very
slow and intermittent.
I can thus only assume that the RCBOs are the cause of the problem as
they are the only difference between the two 'installations.'
Has anyone any ideas or experience of this sort of application and what
I could do to make it work properly without reconfiguring the kitchen
power box to use an RCD?

Just to be clear, do you still just have two Powerline units in total?
One attached by Ethernet to your network and the other in the kitchen.
I ask as having two Powerline devices attached to your network can
cause loops

Correct, only the two units.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Woody
I can thus only assume that the RCBOs are the cause of the problem as
they are the only difference between the two 'installations.'

Create separate power-over-mains networks for each consumer unit, then
bridge ethernet between them (i.e. just a cat 5 between two powerline
devices, one on each network)