FTTP question

[Graham J]

There are several third-party FTTP providers: for example Rutland
Telecom, County Broadband near Colchester, Gigaclear, Hyperoptic ...
generally these suppliers have dug trenches in the pavements to install
their fibres.

If any of thee suppliers were to go broke, who would own the fibres
installed in the ground? Do we expect to see such providers forced
out of business just to get access to the installed fibre?

If I were to buy a house in one of the areas served by such a provider
and the house was not already connected, how easy it is to connect to
the fibre in the street? Are there junction boxes beside each property?

Does anybody out there know?

[Andy Burns]

suppliers have dug trenches in the pavements to install their fibres.
If any of thee suppliers were to go broke, who would own the fibres
installed in the ground?

Whoever bought them from the administrators/liquidators? In the
unlikely event that no one did, presume they go to The Crown.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Andy Burns

suppliers have dug trenches in the pavements to install their fibres.
If any of thee suppliers were to go broke, who would own the fibres
installed in the ground?

Whoever bought them from the administrators/liquidators? In the
unlikely event that no one did, presume they go to The Crown.

In England - The Crown, Duchy of Lancaster or Duchy of Cornwall depending on location. Not sure in Scotland - feudal title was abolished in the noughties - possibly the local council because the fibre was abandoned in the ground in adopted roads.

Not sure about fibre, but the cable companies installed a connection point outside every house they passed.

[Mark Undrill]

On 04/08/2020 08:51, Graham J wrote:
<snip>

Post by Graham J
If I were to buy a house in one of the areas served by such a provider
and the house was not already connected, how easy it is to connect to
the fibre in the street? Are there junction boxes beside each property?
Does anybody out there know?

Each of the providers do things differently. Gigaclear do put connection
points in the road outside every property. I don't know what happens
with new builds though.

[Theo]

Post by Graham J
There are several third-party FTTP providers: for example Rutland
Telecom, County Broadband near Colchester, Gigaclear, Hyperoptic ...
generally these suppliers have dug trenches in the pavements to install
their fibres.
If any of thee suppliers were to go broke, who would own the fibres
installed in the ground? Do we expect to see such providers forced
out of business just to get access to the installed fibre?

About 30 years ago every town had its own cable TV franchise, who were
merrily digging up the streets to lay coax.

Over the intervening time all those cable franchises have got consolidated
into one - Virgin Media. Many of the local differences in installations
have got smoothed away as kit was upgraded to a common standard.

Going back a lot further, many railway lines were originally built by
independent companies, raising capital from local and national investors.
The line got built, the building company often went bankrupt, and some
bigger outfit bought up the assets and continued to run the service.

I would expect a similar thing to happen here. All these upstarts are
happily taking the installation subsidy for now, but eventually they'll
reach steady-state. Then, assuming the price is right, they'll be targets
for acquisition for a larger company. If the price isn't right they'll
either stay indepedent, or go bust and then someone will acquire the assets
and customer base at fire-sale prices. Given that the running costs of FTTP
are relatively low I can't see much risk of connections being abandoned once
they're operational.

Post by Graham J
If I were to buy a house in one of the areas served by such a provider
and the house was not already connected, how easy it is to connect to
the fibre in the street? Are there junction boxes beside each property?

It depends on the network. Sometimes there's a junction box in the street
per property, sometimes it's further away, sometimes it's poled along the
road.

I would expect you can get a connection after the blanket rollout, although
it might depend on the costs involved. For a long time Virgin were in 'milk
the assets' mode and they wouldn't pay for any civil engineering even if
it was just a case of running a few more metres down the street, or wiring
up a close of new-builds to an already-cabled street. If you have a
particular house in mind, I'd ask the provider before buying.

Theo

[Peter Johnson]

On 04 Aug 2020 11:10:36 +0100 (BST), Theo

Post by Theo
For a long time Virgin were in 'milk
the assets' mode and they wouldn't pay for any civil engineering even if
it was just a case of running a few more metres down the street, or wiring
up a close of new-builds to an already-cabled street.

I live in one of six houses that were in a cable-free zone because
when the area was cabled the company required approval from the six
householders to route the cable down the shared block-paved drive.
Approval was not forthcoming because at least one of the occupiers
couldn't see any value in having numerous TV channels, all that was on
offer at the time.[1]
About three years ago three of the houses had changed hands and the
new owners wanted Virgin. On their agreeing to take the full cable
package Virgin installed, on three different occasions, cable to the
houses. Two of the installs were done without interfering with the
drive, which could have been done 20 years ago. The third one, which
could also have avoided the drive, didn't, and there are a few blocks
dipped where the cable runs.
[1] I agreed to the installation, not because I was interested in
numerous TV channels but because I thought it might something useful
to have at a later date, which turned out to be the case. Still not
signed up to Virgin though.

[Vir Campestris]

Post by Theo
About 30 years ago every town had its own cable TV franchise, who were
merrily digging up the streets to lay coax.
Over the intervening time all those cable franchises have got consolidated
into one - Virgin Media. Many of the local differences in installations
have got smoothed away as kit was upgraded to a common standard.

<snip>

I used to live in Bracknell (It's OK, I've escaped!) in a corner of the
town where Virgin hadn't taken it over.

The cable system gradually decayed, and finally someone with a JCB
managed to knock down the aerial tower. So we all put aerials up,
despite the prohibition.

There wasn't enough revenue for Virgin to wire it up to their network.

Just to add to it the 'phone wire was all aluminium, so ADSL was crap.

The final straw was being in a valley equidistant between Hannington and
Crystal Palace, so even the TV was poor - needed a great big Yagi _and_
a masthead amp.

Andy

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Vir Campestris
The final straw was being in a valley equidistant between Hannington and
Crystal Palace, so even the TV was poor - needed a great big Yagi _and_
a masthead amp.

But Crystal Palace is 4 times more powerful than Hannington; so the real
difficult decision is when the distance from Crystal Palace is twice the
distance from Hannington.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by Vir Campestris
The final straw was being in a valley equidistant between Hannington
and Crystal Palace, so even the TV was poor - needed a great big Yagi
_and_ a masthead amp.

But Crystal Palace is 4 times more powerful than Hannington; so the
real difficult decision is when the distance from Crystal Palace is
twice the distance from Hannington.

That's 6dB. There are lots of other variables that mean that figure
can't be taken at face value

Neither CP or Hannington (or any tx site) has a 'flat' HRP. Some
frequencies in some directions will differ in published ERP

One path will be more obscured than another

CP uses lower frequencies than Hannington, so propagation and feeder
losses are lower

In short the only way to decide is to get on the roof, and make real
world measurements

[Andrew]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by Vir Campestris
The final straw was being in a valley equidistant between Hannington
and Crystal Palace, so even the TV was poor - needed a great big Yagi
_and_ a masthead amp.

But Crystal Palace is 4 times more powerful than Hannington; so the
real difficult decision is when the distance from Crystal Palace is
twice the distance from Hannington.

That's 6dB. There are lots of other variables that mean that figure
can't be taken at face value
Neither CP or Hannington (or any tx site) has a 'flat' HRP. Some
frequencies in some directions will differ in published ERP
One path will be more obscured than another
CP uses lower frequencies than Hannington, so propagation and feeder
losses are lower
In short the only way to decide is to get on the roof, and make real
world measurements

There was an intereesting program on BBC4 a few nights ago
about pirate radio. Not the Tony Blackburn stuff out in the Thames
estuary in the 1960's, but the 1980's variety.

Seems that the pirates also decided that Crystal Palace was a
good place to put up their illegal aerials. Surprise.

After being raided a few times they then made up their own
?microwave links to hide the studio and its records and just
keep on replacing aerials and transmitters.
Came to an end when the law was changd to allow all their records
to be confiscated. A guy from the 'ministry' said they had great
fun crushing them !.

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Andrew
There was an intereesting program on BBC4 a few nights ago
about pirate radio. Not the Tony Blackburn stuff out in the Thames
estuary in the 1960's, but the 1980's variety.
Seems that the pirates also decided that Crystal Palace was a
good place to put up their illegal aerials. Surprise.
After being raided a few times they then made up their own
?microwave links to hide the studio and its records and just
keep on replacing aerials and transmitters.

I knew that's what they did.

Post by Andrew
Came to an end when the law was changd to allow all their records
to be confiscated. A guy from the 'ministry' said they had great
fun crushing them !.

I must use BBC iPlayer to watch this!

Thanks.

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Andrew
Seems that the pirates also decided that Crystal Palace was a
good place to put up their illegal aerials. Surprise.

My roof top FM aerial still points to Crystal Palace for exactly that reason,
despite the BBC FM transmitters being in a field in Kent somewhere.

Angus

[Mark Carver]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

Post by Andrew
Seems that the pirates also decided that Crystal Palace was a
good place to put up their illegal aerials. Surprise.

My roof top FM aerial still points to Crystal Palace for exactly that reason,
despite the BBC FM transmitters being in a field in Kent somewhere.

Crystal Palace has transmitted the BBC national FM services, (and
Classic FM) for over 25 years now (in addition to Wrotham in Kent)

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Mark Carver
Crystal Palace has transmitted the BBC national FM services, (and
Classic FM) for over 25 years now (in addition to Wrotham in Kent)

But we are talking about the pirate era 10 years earlier.

I seem to recall Radio 1 appearing from Crystal Palace in the eighties, but
gave up listening to it 20 years earlier when it was only on lo-fi MW.

The BBC4 show (which was a repeat) showed several building top masts used by
the pirates, and taxi companies, etc.

Angus

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

Post by Mark Carver
Crystal Palace has transmitted the BBC national FM services, (and
Classic FM) for over 25 years now (in addition to Wrotham in Kent)

But we are talking about the pirate era 10 years earlier.
I seem to recall Radio 1 appearing from Crystal Palace in the eighties, but
gave up listening to it 20 years earlier when it was only on lo-fi MW.
The BBC4 show (which was a repeat) showed several building top masts used by
the pirates, and taxi companies, etc.
Angus

The point is it's probably not wrong for it to be pointing at Crystal
Palace now as you implied it was.

[MB]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
The BBC4 show (which was a repeat) showed several building top masts used by
the pirates, and taxi companies, etc.

There are some nasty stories about them having live electric connections
to feeders and equipment to injure or worse anyone finding it. I think
we were told not to touch anything found. They also broke into sites
and stole equipment. Not nice people

[Brian Gregory]

Post by MB
There are some nasty stories about them having live electric connections
to feeders and equipment to injure or worse anyone finding it.  I think
we were told not to touch anything found.  They also broke into sites
and stole equipment.  Not nice people

That rings a bell with me too.
Horrible.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by MB
There are some nasty stories about them having live electric
connections to feeders and equipment to injure or worse anyone
finding it.  I think we were told not to touch anything found.  They
also broke into sites and stole equipment.  Not nice people

That rings a bell with me too.
Horrible.

You should read some of the stories about drug cartels using mobile
phone masts etc to stick their PMR kit on in Mexico.

[Andrew]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by MB
There are some nasty stories about them having live electric
connections to feeders and equipment to injure or worse anyone
finding it.  I think we were told not to touch anything found.  They
also broke into sites and stole equipment.  Not nice people

That rings a bell with me too.
Horrible.

You should read some of the stories about drug cartels using mobile
phone masts etc to stick their PMR kit on in Mexico.

That unshaven BBC travelogue presenter, Simon something was given
a tour of mexican town by the 'police' and show all the minature
CCTV cameras that the cartels had installed inside many of the
street light pendants, so they could see who was coming and going.

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by MB
There are some nasty stories about them having live electric
connections to feeders and equipment to injure or worse anyone
finding it.  I think we were told not to touch anything found.  They
also broke into sites and stole equipment.  Not nice people

That rings a bell with me too.
Horrible.

You should read some of the stories about drug cartels using mobile
phone masts etc to stick their PMR kit on in Mexico.

I meant the booby trapped transmitters at the top of tower blocks.
Designed in electrocute anyone that investigates them.

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Brian Gregory
I meant the booby trapped transmitters at the top of tower blocks.
Designed in electrocute anyone that investigates them.

Most pirates were not targeting the DTI investigators, but rival pirate
stations trying to take them off air. A lot of money was being made from
advertising while on air.

Angus

[Mark Carver]

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by Mark Carver
You should read some of the stories about drug cartels using mobile
phone masts etc to stick their PMR kit on in Mexico.

I meant the booby trapped transmitters at the top of tower blocks.
Designed in electrocute anyone that investigates them.

The Mexicans will put a bullet in the head of anyone investigating their
kit. Take your choice......

[Andrew]

Post by MB

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
The BBC4 show (which was a repeat) showed several building top masts used by
the pirates, and taxi companies, etc.

There are some nasty stories about them having live electric connections
to feeders and equipment to injure or worse anyone finding it.  I think
we were told not to touch anything found.  They also broke into sites
and stole equipment.  Not nice people

They were always breaking onto the flat roofs of social tower
housing and then running cables down the foul stack vent pipe
and into the flat below.

There were many examples of old transmitter cables and other
stuff going further down and causing massive sewage blockages
which inevitably flooded out the unfortunate ground floor
occupants.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Andrew
Seems that the pirates also decided that Crystal Palace was a
good place to put up their illegal aerials. Surprise.

The area is, but the Crystal Palace transmitter site was a major BBC
maintenance and radio/news links site, heavily fortified, and manned
more or less permanently anyway.

It's another urban myth. Plenty of nearby buildings that they could
have, and probably used.

[Andrew]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Andrew
Seems that the pirates also decided that Crystal Palace was a
good place to put up their illegal aerials. Surprise.

The area is, but the Crystal Palace transmitter site was a major BBC
maintenance and radio/news links site, heavily fortified, and manned
more or less permanently anyway.
It's another urban myth. Plenty of nearby buildings that they could
have, and probably used.

I meant, the Crystal Palace area was the best place to put their
aerials, not shin up the actual BBC transmitter :-)

[MB]

Post by Andrew
I meant, the Crystal Palace area was the best place to put their
aerials, not shin up the actual BBC transmitter

I suspect it was because it would be more difficult to track down an
unlicensed transmission because of the high level signals interfering
with the measuring equipoment.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Andrew

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by Vir Campestris
The final straw was being in a valley equidistant between Hannington
and Crystal Palace, so even the TV was poor - needed a great big Yagi
_and_ a masthead amp.

But Crystal Palace is 4 times more powerful than Hannington; so the
real difficult decision is when the distance from Crystal Palace is
twice the distance from Hannington.

That's 6dB. There are lots of other variables that mean that figure
can't be taken at face value
Neither CP or Hannington (or any tx site) has a 'flat' HRP. Some
frequencies in some directions will differ in published ERP
One path will be more obscured than another
CP uses lower frequencies than Hannington, so propagation and feeder
losses are lower
In short the only way to decide is to get on the roof, and make real
world measurements

There was an intereesting program on BBC4 a few nights ago
about pirate radio. Not the Tony Blackburn stuff out in the Thames
estuary in the 1960's, but the 1980's variety.
Seems that the pirates also decided that Crystal Palace was a
good place to put up their illegal aerials. Surprise.
After being raided a few times they then made up their own
?microwave links to hide the studio and its records and just
keep on replacing aerials and transmitters.

Manchester University's [illegal] Radio Rag did this in 1974 (SW link - MW Tx). The aerial was strung off the roof, the Tx & SW equipment hidden behind panels in the lift lobby of a high floor in the tower and the studio set up in a vacated study bedroom somewhere in the building. - there may even have been a standby "studio" for when the GPO man got close.

Even though it only ran for Rag week (and made money for its charities) the GPO still sent engineers looking for it.

Post by Andrew
Came to an end when the law was changd to allow all their records
to be confiscated. A guy from the 'ministry' said they had great
fun crushing them !.

I bet they actually took them to record exchange shops...

[Vir Campestris]

Post by Mark Carver
In short the only way to decide is to get on the roof, and make real
world measurements

We actually picked Hannington over CP for the regional variations.

Andy

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Vir Campestris

Post by Mark Carver
In short the only way to decide is to get on the roof, and make real
world measurements

We actually picked Hannington over CP for the regional variations.
Andy

Yes, my parents too, even though Crystal Palace is much stronger.

I'm renting a flat now (not far away) and have no choice.
I get a poor signal from Hannington filtered through an out of date set
of filters. COM7 is very marginal and the local mux is filtered out
completely. :(

I've more of less changed over to using the provided satellite feed for
everything now. But even that is in need of some maintenance and some
transponders are coming through with too low a signal to noise ratio to
work at all.

[Bob Eager]

Post by Mark Undrill

Post by Theo
About 30 years ago every town had its own cable TV franchise, who were
merrily digging up the streets to lay coax.
Over the intervening time all those cable franchises have got
consolidated into one - Virgin Media. Many of the local differences in
installations have got smoothed away as kit was upgraded to a common
standard.

<snip>
I used to live in Bracknell (It's OK, I've escaped!) in a corner of the
town where Virgin hadn't taken it over.
The cable system gradually decayed, and finally someone with a JCB
managed to knock down the aerial tower. So we all put aerials up,
despite the prohibition.
There wasn't enough revenue for Virgin to wire it up to their network.
Just to add to it the 'phone wire was all aluminium, so ADSL was crap.
The final straw was being in a valley equidistant between Hannington and
Crystal Palace, so even the TV was poor - needed a great big Yagi _and_
a masthead amp.

Someone I know in Bracknell has a dish on his roof, with line of sight to
a data centre. He gets quite good speeds!

[Graham J]

Bob Eager wrote:

[snip]

Post by Bob Eager
Someone I know in Bracknell has a dish on his roof, with line of sight to
a data centre. He gets quite good speeds!

In the early days of BBC radio, engineers were measuring field strengths
around a MW transmitter and noted a large reduction in one area.
Investigation revealed somebody with a large garden had rigged up a
half-wave dipole (so about 150m in length) and was running his house
lighting from it.

Evidently he was done for not having a radio receiving licence (a legal
requirement in those days).

[Bob Eager]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Bob Eager
Someone I know in Bracknell has a dish on his roof, with line of sight
to a data centre. He gets quite good speeds!

In the early days of BBC radio, engineers were measuring field strengths
around a MW transmitter and noted a large reduction in one area.
Investigation revealed somebody with a large garden had rigged up a
half-wave dipole (so about 150m in length) and was running his house
lighting from it.
Evidently he was done for not having a radio receiving licence (a legal
requirement in those days).

I had heard that. Crystal Palace, I believe.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Bob Eager
Someone I know in Bracknell has a dish on his roof, with line of sight
to a data centre. He gets quite good speeds!

In the early days of BBC radio, engineers were measuring field strengths
around a MW transmitter and noted a large reduction in one area.
Investigation revealed somebody with a large garden had rigged up a
half-wave dipole (so about 150m in length) and was running his house
lighting from it.
Evidently he was done for not having a radio receiving licence (a legal
requirement in those days).

I had heard that. Crystal Palace, I believe.

 I can't see how that would lead to a measurable reduction of local
field strength. Surely for a measurable loss, real amounts of energy
would need to be extracted, not really possible via what's essentially
an air cored transformer ?

[Graham J]

Mark Carver wrote:

[snip]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Bob Eager
I had heard that. Crystal Palace, I believe.

My recollection is thatr it was Brookmans Park.

Post by Mark Carver
 I can't see how that would lead to a measurable reduction of local
field strength. Surely for a measurable loss, real amounts of energy
would need to be extracted, not really possible via what's essentially
an air cored transformer ?

The half-wavelength I think helps. From:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookmans_Park_transmitting_station>

"... first station, on 842 kHz, (356m) 50 kW, went into service in on 21
October 1929 ..."

<https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/free-space-path-loss-calculator>
for 1km at 1Mhz assuming 2dB gain on a correctly orientated receiving
dipole, and 0dB gain for the transmitting antanna, suggests 30dB path loss.

30dB down on 50kW is about 50 watts. The source impedance of the dipole
is about 75 ohms. Assuming a 75 ohm load presented by the lamps, that
50W is halved between the dipole and the load, so about 43v RMS at 1MHz
across the lamps. With the correct choice of lamps (3 or 4 car
sidelight bulbs in series) that would have given adequate light to get
about a house at night. Could have been improved by a suitable matching
transformer.

It's likely that this parasitic antenna would have made a small but
measureable drop in the expected signal at a short distance further from
the transmitter (possibly another km). Given the geography of the site
perhaps the signal strength measurements were made starting quite close
to the transmitter. Evidently a reason for the choice of location was
to avoid receivers at nearby households being overloaded; so having no
houses nearby was important.

I've not been able to find an authoritative reference, but the sums
would suggest it is not wholly an invention.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <rgecrs$r3o$***@dont-email.me>, Graham J <***@nowhere.co.uk>
writes

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Bob Eager
I had heard that. Crystal Palace, I believe.

My recollection is thatr it was Brookmans Park.

Post by Mark Carver
 I can't see how that would lead to a measurable reduction of local
field strength. Surely for a measurable loss, real amounts of energy
would need to be extracted, not really possible via what's essentially
an air cored transformer ?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookmans_Park_transmitting_station>
"... first station, on 842 kHz, (356m) 50 kW, went into service in on
21 October 1929 ..."
<https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/free-space-path-loss-calculator>
for 1km at 1Mhz assuming 2dB gain on a correctly orientated receiving
dipole, and 0dB gain for the transmitting antanna, suggests 30dB path loss.
30dB down on 50kW is about 50 watts. The source impedance of the dipole
is about 75 ohms. Assuming a 75 ohm load presented by the lamps, that
50W is halved between the dipole and the load, so about 43v RMS at 1MHz
across the lamps. With the correct choice of lamps (3 or 4 car
sidelight bulbs in series) that would have given adequate light to get
about a house at night. Could have been improved by a suitable
matching transformer.
It's likely that this parasitic antenna would have made a small but
measureable drop in the expected signal at a short distance further
from the transmitter (possibly another km). Given the geography of the
site perhaps the signal strength measurements were made starting quite
close to the transmitter. Evidently a reason for the choice of
location was to avoid receivers at nearby households being overloaded;
so having no houses nearby was important.
I've not been able to find an authoritative reference, but the sums
would suggest it is not wholly an invention.

It smells possibly of urban myth.

As for calculating the induced voltage, don't forget that the
transmitted signal would be strongly vertically polarised - and I doubt
that the receiving halfwave would be vertical.

A similar possible myth is people close to a MW or LW transmitter being
done for powering 'clip-on-the window' parking lights from the RF
signal. 'Tis said that some were given away by the modulation causing
the lights to flicker slightly.

[Bob Eager]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Bob Eager
Someone I know in Bracknell has a dish on his roof, with line of
sight to a data centre. He gets quite good speeds!

In the early days of BBC radio, engineers were measuring field
strengths around a MW transmitter and noted a large reduction in one
area. Investigation revealed somebody with a large garden had rigged
up a half-wave dipole (so about 150m in length) and was running his
house lighting from it.
Evidently he was done for not having a radio receiving licence (a
legal requirement in those days).

I had heard that. Crystal Palace, I believe.

 I can't see how that would lead to a measurable reduction of local
field strength. Surely for a measurable loss, real amounts of energy
would need to be extracted, not really possible via what's essentially
an air cored transformer ?

I hadn't heard the field strength part before. But the rest of it is just
about plausible, I guess.

[Michael Chare]

Post by Graham J
There are several third-party FTTP providers: for example Rutland
Telecom, County Broadband near Colchester, Gigaclear, Hyperoptic ...
generally these suppliers have dug trenches in the pavements to install
their fibres.
If any of thee suppliers were to go broke, who would own the fibres
installed in the ground?    Do we expect to see such providers forced
out of business just to get access to the installed fibre?

If a supplier went broke their assets would be sold to pay off the
creditors. Almost certainly someone would want to buy the cables and
associated equipment.

Post by Graham J
If I were to buy a house in one of the areas served by such a provider
and the house was not already connected, how easy it is to connect to
the fibre in the street?  Are there junction boxes beside each property?
Does anybody out there know?

In the case of Gigaclear there are junctions boxes on the edges of
nearly all the properties in the area served.

Laying a cable to connect to a router is a customer problem. Either DIY
or pay someone else to do the work. Gigaclear would provide a suitable
cable with connectors on the ends.

[Plusnet Support Team]

Post by Graham J
There are several third-party FTTP providers: for example Rutland
Telecom, County Broadband near Colchester, Gigaclear, Hyperoptic ...
generally these suppliers have dug trenches in the pavements to install
their fibres.
If any of thee suppliers were to go broke, who would own the fibres
installed in the ground?    Do we expect to see such providers forced
out of business just to get access to the installed fibre?
If I were to buy a house in one of the areas served by such a provider
and the house was not already connected, how easy it is to connect to
the fibre in the street?  Are there junction boxes beside each property?
Does anybody out there know?

I recently moved into a new build house that's served by Hyperoptic. The
fibre was already fed to the property, and an ONT installed in a utility
cupboard. In fact, they'd gone the whole hog and installed a router too,
that allowed you to connect to it using Wi-Fi and order the service via
a walled garden page.

I haven't activated the service though as I'm using Openreach FTTP
instead (also came pre-installed, minus the router).

[Andy Burns]

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I recently moved into a new build house that's served by Hyperoptic.
I haven't activated the service though

You'd never live it down :-)

[Mark Carver]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I recently moved into a new build house that's served by Hyperoptic.
I haven't activated the service though

You'd never live it down :-)

There is the saying, 'know your enemy' though.....  ;-)

[Graham J]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I recently moved into a new build house that's served by Hyperoptic.
I haven't activated the service though

You'd never live it down :-)

There is the saying, 'know your enemy' though.....  ;-)

Bob - where do you live to get this sort of service?

I know people near Holbeach tryimg to run a farm business on ADSL at 2
Mbits/sec, and homes nearby where ADSL is not available because the
phone line route is 12km to exchange.

3G and 4G from Vodafoen, EE, and others do in theory offer a service,
but contention means that 1 mbits/sec is a typical download speed during
office hours.

These people would love to have FTTP ...!!!

[Tweed]

Post by Graham J

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I recently moved into a new build house that's served by Hyperoptic.
I haven't activated the service though

You'd never live it down :-)

There is the saying, 'know your enemy' though.....  ;-)

Bob - where do you live to get this sort of service?
I know people near Holbeach tryimg to run a farm business on ADSL at 2
Mbits/sec, and homes nearby where ADSL is not available because the
phone line route is 12km to exchange.
3G and 4G from Vodafoen, EE, and others do in theory offer a service,
but contention means that 1 mbits/sec is a typical download speed during
office hours.
These people would love to have FTTP ...!!!

Have they tried 4G recently? I have no hard evidence, but I suspect back
haul improvements and more spectrum is helping with rural 4G. I have a
colleague in the Peak District who has just dumped a rather unreliable long
line FTTC circuit in favour of 4G via Vodafone on a Mifi type device. She
gets very decent speeds through the day and evening. Of course, you do need
a reasonable signal strength.

[Graham J]

Tweed wrote:

[snip]

Post by Tweed

3G and 4G from Vodafone, EE, and others do in theory offer a service,
but contention means that 1 mbits/sec is a typical download speed during
office hours.
These people would love to have FTTP ...!!!

Have they tried 4G recently? I have no hard evidence, but I suspect back
haul improvements and more spectrum is helping with rural 4G. I have a
colleague in the Peak District who has just dumped a rather unreliable long
line FTTC circuit in favour of 4G via Vodafone on a Mifi type device. She
gets very decent speeds through the day and evening. Of course, you do need
a reasonable signal strength.

The most recent test was 14 July. Informal tests suggested that at
gound level we should get 6 Mbits/sec.

So we used a contractor - https://ruralbroadband.co.uk/ - to install a
Mikrotic router - https://mikrotik.com/product/lhg_lte6_kit
- at the top of an existing pole, about 10 metres above ground on top
of a big barn. The installer saw a good strong signal and measured 10
Mbits/sec upstream but only 1 Mbit/sec downstream. So he took pictures
of the performance screens to send to his office for them to follow up
with Vodafone. The installer took the Microtik router away.

We've heard nothing since.

There are other contractors who also offer 4G in this area but they
agree that there's no reason to suppose that they would do any better.
They certainly don't want to come and try anything at their own expense.

There are also point-to-point radio services available; but the only one
that responded to my enquiry looked at his map and explained that
there's a big clump of trees on the line between our barn and their
antenna - so it won't work.

Where and how do Hyperoptic and the like connect their fibre to the
internet?

It occurs to me that this farm and its neighbours might club together to
install a duct across the land between their buildings and the nearby
village (about 5km) where there is a BT exchange. I should think a
tractor dragging a mole drain tool could do the job in a day or two.
Then pull a fibre through.

If the farmer puts in the duct, who could supply and install the fibre
connection?

[Chris]

Post by Graham J

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I recently moved into a new build house that's served by Hyperoptic.
I haven't activated the service though

You'd never live it down :-)

There is the saying, 'know your enemy' though.....  ;-)

Bob - where do you live to get this sort of service?

In cities.

Post by Graham J
I know people near Holbeach tryimg to run a farm business on ADSL at 2
Mbits/sec, and homes nearby where ADSL is not available because the
phone line route is 12km to exchange.

Looks like the nearest place the serve in Prterborough

https://hyperoptic.com//map/?q=Spalding%2C%20%20Cowbit%2C%20PE12

Post by Graham J
3G and 4G from Vodafoen, EE, and others do in theory offer a service,
but contention means that 1 mbits/sec is a typical download speed during
office hours.
These people would love to have FTTP ...!!!

That's sadly how it works. Those who need it most can't get it.

[Plusnet Support Team]

Post by Graham J

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I recently moved into a new build house that's served by Hyperoptic.
I haven't activated the service though

You'd never live it down :-)

There is the saying, 'know your enemy' though.....  ;-)

Bob - where do you live to get this sort of service?

Sheffield/Derbyshire border. Choice of Gigabit FTTP, Hyperoptic or Virgin.

Post by Graham J
I know people near Holbeach tryimg to run a farm business on ADSL at 2
Mbits/sec, and homes nearby where ADSL is not available because the
phone line route is 12km to exchange.
3G and 4G from Vodafoen, EE, and others do in theory offer a service,
but contention means that 1 mbits/sec is a typical download speed during
office hours.
These people would love to have FTTP ...!

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Graham J

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I recently moved into a new build house that's served by Hyperoptic.
I haven't activated the service though

You'd never live it down :-)

There is the saying, 'know your enemy' though.....  ;-)

Bob - where do you live to get this sort of service?
I know people near Holbeach tryimg to run a farm business on ADSL at 2
Mbits/sec, and homes nearby where ADSL is not available because the
phone line route is 12km to exchange.
3G and 4G from Vodafoen, EE, and others do in theory offer a service,
but contention means that 1 mbits/sec is a typical download speed during
office hours.
These people would love to have FTTP ...!!!
--
Graham J

A friend has business premises near a major railway station. ADSL speed was dire, so OMA he installed a Teltonika 4G modem and 3 "all the data you can eat" SIM in it and external aerial. He is close line of sight to a base station, so signal strength is great. Good speed during the working day or evening, but it drops a bit in the rush hour when all the commuters catch up on the news, email and social media in the station ~400m away.

I suspect that in rural areas contention during the working day should be fairly low, but once all the kids get home from school expect to see some network congestion.

Oddly BT might be best, because guess where they often put their macro cells?



A: - on top of the local telephone exchange. Macro cells are the ones with several directional aerials and long range (e.g. for rural areas).

[Plusnet Support Team]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I recently moved into a new build house that's served by Hyperoptic.
I haven't activated the service though

You'd never live it down :-)

There is the saying, 'know your enemy' though.....  ;-)

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been tempted! The notion of symmetrical
1Gbps is quite appealing to me ;)

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been tempted! The notion of
symmetrical 1Gbps is quite appealing to me ;)

Problem is Hyperoptic probably only one 1Gb leased line to the estate or
apartment building, so on downloads at least lots of contention. Even
Openreach only has 1Gb active fibre to most FTTC cabinets, except the very
busiest.

Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so your IP address
keeps changing, and some web services may not work correctly since you web page
appears to be coming from multiple IP addresses.

Angus

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been tempted! The notion of
symmetrical 1Gbps is quite appealing to me ;)

Problem is Hyperoptic probably only one 1Gb leased line to the estate or
apartment building, so on downloads at least lots of contention.

Well at least Hyperoptic have stopped Spamming this group, however you can easily get thirty 4k video feeds down a single 1Gbps fibre, and not everyone is going to be watching that at the same time.

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Even
Openreach only has 1Gb active fibre to most FTTC cabinets, except the very
busiest.

Statistical muliplexing means that that can serve scores of users. Some will be watching 4k video, but others will just be surfing, viewing social media, their email or talking on Skype and the majority won't be downloading at all.

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so your IP address
keeps changing, and some web services may not work correctly since you web page
appears to be coming from multiple IP addresses.

And the third is that if you actually want 1Gbps you pay through the nose.

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Angus

[Recliner]

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been tempted! The notion of
symmetrical 1Gbps is quite appealing to me ;)

Problem is Hyperoptic probably only one 1Gb leased line to the estate or
apartment building, so on downloads at least lots of contention.

Well at least Hyperoptic have stopped Spamming this group, however you
can easily get thirty 4k video feeds down a single 1Gbps fibre, and not
everyone is going to be watching that at the same time.

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Even
Openreach only has 1Gb active fibre to most FTTC cabinets, except the very
busiest.

Statistical muliplexing means that that can serve scores of users. Some
will be watching 4k video, but others will just be surfing, viewing
social media, their email or talking on Skype and the majority won't be downloading at all.

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so your IP address
keeps changing, and some web services may not work correctly since you web page
appears to be coming from multiple IP addresses.

And the third is that if you actually want 1Gbps you pay through the nose.

Yes, they offer much cheaper lower (but still very fast) symmetrical
speeds, all suitable for even the most-data hungry household. My
symmetrical 150 Mbps is cheaper than my previous 'unlimited' (but
unreliable) FTTC BT connection, that achieved about 50/10 Mbps at best. I
considered moving up to 250 Mbps on Hyperoptic, but couldn't think of a
rational reason to do so. Ditto with higher speeds.

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so your IP address
keeps changing, and some web services may not work correctly since you web page
appears to be coming from multiple IP addresses.

So presumably no incoming connections allowed.
Thanks for the warning.

[Plusnet Support Team]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been tempted! The notion of
symmetrical 1Gbps is quite appealing to me ;)

Problem is Hyperoptic probably only one 1Gb leased line to the estate or
apartment building, so on downloads at least lots of contention. Even
Openreach only has 1Gb active fibre to most FTTC cabinets, except the very
busiest.

Very much doubt this is the case. There are over 200 properties on the
estate and all have access to a 1Gbps symmetrical service (and many of
them are using it judging by the SSIDs I can see broadcasting).

FTTC != FTTP, and the Openreach FTTP headend I'm connected to will be
using 10gbps cablelinks. I don't believe the > 330mbps speed tiers are
available where this isn't the case.

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so your IP address
keeps changing, and some web services may not work correctly since you web page
appears to be coming from multiple IP addresses.

They offer static IPv4 addresses for £5pcm.

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Plusnet Support Team

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so your IP address
keeps changing, and some web services may not work correctly since you web page
appears to be coming from multiple IP addresses.

They offer static IPv4 addresses for £5pcm.

What about IPv6 ?

[Andy Burns]

Angus wrote: >

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so
your IP address keeps changing

What about IPv6 ?

<https://www.hyperoptic.com/faq/posts/static-ip-addresses>

Doesn't actually say the work is complete, but that's an old FAQ

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Andy Burns

Angus wrote: >

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so
your IP address keeps changing

What about IPv6 ?

<https://www.hyperoptic.com/faq/posts/static-ip-addresses>
Doesn't actually say the work is complete, but that's an old FAQ

Thanks.

[Recliner]

On Fri, 21 Aug 2020 09:13:10 +0100, Brian Gregory

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by Plusnet Support Team

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so your IP address
keeps changing, and some web services may not work correctly since you web page
appears to be coming from multiple IP addresses.

They offer static IPv4 addresses for £5pcm.

What about IPv6 ?

The Hyperoptic support people are very responsive, so you could try
asking them. They're available 24x7 (not that I've put that to the
test!), and usually respond quickly and accurately.

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Recliner
On Fri, 21 Aug 2020 09:13:10 +0100, Brian Gregory

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by Plusnet Support Team

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so your IP address
keeps changing, and some web services may not work correctly since you web page
appears to be coming from multiple IP addresses.

They offer static IPv4 addresses for £5pcm.

What about IPv6 ?

The Hyperoptic support people are very responsive, so you could try
asking them. They're available 24x7 (not that I've put that to the
test!), and usually respond quickly and accurately.

Well it's too late now anyway. I made the decision to live in a flat in
a block that provides TV serial and satellite dish feeds to the flats
but you have to get broadband down your own phone line rather than the
other flat that was available where nothing was provided except
broadband from, I think, Hyperoptic.

Little did I know how slow they would be to fix the dish when the wind
blows it out of alignment and to update and fix the TV aerial
distribution system when it became unstable and when the local multiplex
started up. I feel cheated.

[Recliner]

Post by Plusnet Support Team

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been tempted! The notion of
symmetrical 1Gbps is quite appealing to me ;)

Problem is Hyperoptic probably only one 1Gb leased line to the estate or
apartment building, so on downloads at least lots of contention. Even
Openreach only has 1Gb active fibre to most FTTC cabinets, except the very
busiest.

Very much doubt this is the case. There are over 200 properties on the
estate and all have access to a 1Gbps symmetrical service (and many of
them are using it judging by the SSIDs I can see broadcasting).

Do

Post by Plusnet Support Team
FTTC != FTTP, and the Openreach FTTP headend I'm connected to will be
using 10gbps cablelinks. I don't believe the > 330mbps speed tiers are
available where this isn't the case.

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Second problem is Hyperoptic uses CNAT like mobile phones, so your IP address
keeps changing, and some web services may not work correctly since you web page
appears to be coming from multiple IP addresses.

They offer static IPv4 addresses for £5pcm.

[Vir Campestris]

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I haven't activated the service though as I'm using Openreach FTTP
instead (also came pre-installed, minus the router).

Haven't heard from you for _ages_!!!

Do you support FTTP now? At the time ours was installed you didn't.

Andy

[Plusnet Support Team]

Post by Vir Campestris

Post by Plusnet Support Team
I haven't activated the service though as I'm using Openreach FTTP
instead (also came pre-installed, minus the router).

Haven't heard from you for _ages_!!!
Do you support FTTP now? At the time ours was installed you didn't.

Not in any official capacity, no. Matter of time though really.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Plusnet Support Team

Post by Vir Campestris
Do you support FTTP now?

Matter of time

Half a sigh of relief ...

[Graham J]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Plusnet Support Team

Post by Vir Campestris
Do you support FTTP now?

Matter of time

Half a sigh of relief ...

Bob,

Any chance of FTTP at a farm building at postcode
PE12 8EX Grid reference: 52°53'08.3"N 0°03'19.2"E
please?

Is this likely to be 1 year, 10 years, sometime, never?

[Andy Burns]

Post by Graham J
Any chance of FTTP at a farm building at postcode
PE12 8EX

<stifled laughter>

Not a recommendation, but tried these?

<https://www.quickline.co.uk/coverage-checker>

[Graham J]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Graham J
Any chance of FTTP at a farm building at postcode
PE12 8EX

<stifled laughter>
Not a recommendation, but tried these?
<https://www.quickline.co.uk/coverage-checker>

Yes. They said: "We've run a coverage check and unfortunately there is
a cluster of trees several kilometers away blocking line of sight to our
infrastructure in the area."

But thanks for the suggestion.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Graham J

Post by Andy Burns
https://www.quickline.co.uk/coverage-checker>

They said: "We've run a coverage check and unfortunately there is
a cluster of trees several kilometers away blocking line of sight to our
infrastructure in the area."

tall mast?
aerial distant from the buildings?
chainsaw?

[Graham J]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Andy Burns
https://www.quickline.co.uk/coverage-checker>

They said: "We've run a coverage check and unfortunately there is a
cluster of trees several kilometers away blocking line of sight to our
infrastructure in the area."

tall mast?

Barn roof is up about 10 metres. But probably we would need 50m to
clear the trees

Post by Andy Burns
aerial distant from the buildings?

May be worth investigating

Post by Andy Burns
chainsaw?

Not our trees.

[Chris]

Post by Graham J

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Plusnet Support Team

Post by Vir Campestris
Do you support FTTP now?

Matter of time

Half a sigh of relief ...

Bob,
Any chance of FTTP at a farm building at postcode
PE12 8EX Grid reference: 52°53'08.3"N 0°03'19.2"E
please?
Is this likely to be 1 year, 10 years, sometime, never?

From Bob? Never.

He works for plusnet which sells services on *existing* infrastructure. If
you want new cabling installed you need to look elsewhere.

[Tweed]

Post by Graham J

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Plusnet Support Team

Post by Vir Campestris
Do you support FTTP now?

Matter of time

Half a sigh of relief ...

Bob,
Any chance of FTTP at a farm building at postcode
PE12 8EX Grid reference: 52°53'08.3"N 0°03'19.2"E
please?
Is this likely to be 1 year, 10 years, sometime, never?

You mentioned the farmers laying ducts themselves. Have you/they considered
https://b4rn.org.uk/

There seems to be a group in south Norfolk building such a project. Could
your farmers do similar in their area?