How much bandwidth does the average home need?

[David]

I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.

All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!

At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.

All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).

Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.

Cheers



Dave R

[Andy Burns]

Post by David
what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.

Virgin FTTH is available here, but I don't really want it, so a piece of
BT's finest 80 Mbps copper string does me OK, it can handle 4K streaming...

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by David
what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.

Virgin FTTH is available here, but I don't really want it, so a piece of
BT's finest 80 Mbps copper string does me OK, it can handle 4K streaming...

I got 72 Mb/s at my previous home, that was FTTC. My ADSL was 8 Mb/s I
think but I did get 14 Mb/s at one stage, was that ADSL2 I wonder?

[Spike]

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

That’s the wrong question. Ask instead how much it would cost to have an
unlimited 75Mb FTTP connection.

Post by David
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.

[Chris]

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.

I'm of the opinion that the most expensive packages are pointless for
95% of households.

We're a family of four on a ~50Mbps (measured) FTTC connection and it
manages with all the streaming we can throw at it incl. 4K. At the peak
of the pandemic we had three of us WFH fulltime without a hic-cup.

I'd much rather a symmetric connection than faster downloads.

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by Chris
I'm of the opinion that the most expensive packages are pointless for
95% of households.
We're a family of four on a ~50Mbps (measured) FTTC connection and it
manages with all the streaming we can throw at it incl. 4K. At the peak
of the pandemic we had three of us WFH fulltime without a hic-cup.
I'd much rather a symmetric connection than faster downloads.

Same here - and a static IP address might be nice too.

[Woody]

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Chris
I'm of the opinion that the most expensive packages are pointless for
95% of households.
We're a family of four on a ~50Mbps (measured) FTTC connection and it
manages with all the streaming we can throw at it incl. 4K. At the
peak of the pandemic we had three of us WFH fulltime without a hic-cup.
I'd much rather a symmetric connection than faster downloads.

Same here - and a static IP address might be nice too.

Static address is nice, but I have VM and the external address has only
changed once in the 23 years I have had a cable service from them - and
that was after a drunk piled the street cab at the top of my road about
15 years ago!
With the aid of my s-i-l I have used a RPi Zero-W which runs a small
package that checks my external address every five minutes and passes
the result to duckdns if it has changed. Then all you need to do is
interrogate duckdns to check the result before using it on line or in a
VPN. [You can also use a RPi 3B or 4 as a private VPN so you have full
control.]

[Theo]

Post by Chris
I'm of the opinion that the most expensive packages are pointless for
95% of households.
We're a family of four on a ~50Mbps (measured) FTTC connection and it
manages with all the streaming we can throw at it incl. 4K. At the peak
of the pandemic we had three of us WFH fulltime without a hic-cup.
I'd much rather a symmetric connection than faster downloads.

VM's packages are so asymmetric - so it's 350M down and 35M up. When I was
on VM I was on a higher package purely to increase the upload bandwidth.

(I think currently the higher tier is 1.1G down and only 52M up, so no matter
what you pay the upload is still poor)

Theo

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by David
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

I was able to stream HDTV quite nicely with a 25/5 VDSL connection,
the usage graph in the Draytek router I had at the time rarely showing
downloads going above 20, and mostly peaking about 15.

Your requirements might be affected by the number of people in the
household if there are several people wanting to watch different
movies at the same time. Even then it might not be a frequent problem
but I'd recommend going for fibre as soon as you can. Even the slowest
fibre connection should suit any domestic situation.

Rod.

[David]

Post by David
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low
grade legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional
large downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

I was able to stream HDTV quite nicely with a 25/5 VDSL connection, the
usage graph in the Draytek router I had at the time rarely showing
downloads going above 20, and mostly peaking about 15.
Your requirements might be affected by the number of people in the
household if there are several people wanting to watch different movies
at the same time. Even then it might not be a frequent problem but I'd
recommend going for fibre as soon as you can. Even the slowest fibre
connection should suit any domestic situation.
Rod.

Noting that I currently have 300 Mb down.
I'm looking for viable alternatives to VM and fibre is not available.

Cheers


Dave R

[Chris]

Post by David

Post by David
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low
grade legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional
large downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

I was able to stream HDTV quite nicely with a 25/5 VDSL connection, the
usage graph in the Draytek router I had at the time rarely showing
downloads going above 20, and mostly peaking about 15.
Your requirements might be affected by the number of people in the
household if there are several people wanting to watch different movies
at the same time. Even then it might not be a frequent problem but I'd
recommend going for fibre as soon as you can. Even the slowest fibre
connection should suit any domestic situation.
Rod.

Noting that I currently have 300 Mb down.
I'm looking for viable alternatives to VM and fibre is not available.

Do you mean full fibre (FTTH) or fibre to the cabinet (FTTC/VDSL)?
FTTC/VDSL or even ADSL2 could be fast enough depending on how far you
are from your exchange.

[David]

Post by Chris

Post by David

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by David
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low
grade legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming,
occasional large downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

I was able to stream HDTV quite nicely with a 25/5 VDSL connection,
the usage graph in the Draytek router I had at the time rarely showing
downloads going above 20, and mostly peaking about 15.
Your requirements might be affected by the number of people in the
household if there are several people wanting to watch different
movies at the same time. Even then it might not be a frequent problem
but I'd recommend going for fibre as soon as you can. Even the slowest
fibre connection should suit any domestic situation.
Rod.

Noting that I currently have 300 Mb down.
I'm looking for viable alternatives to VM and fibre is not available.

Do you mean full fibre (FTTH) or fibre to the cabinet (FTTC/VDSL)?
FTTC/VDSL or even ADSL2 could be fast enough depending on how far you
are from your exchange.

I am looking for Fibre To The Premises or FTTP.
This seems to have been renamed FTTH recently.
According to Zen there is only a 10 Mbps down package available to my
house.
I doubt this is FTTC unless the copper is especially flaky.
FTTC should offer at least 70 Mbps as far as I know.
Given that there are fibre connections on top of the local poles (just not
in use for the general public) I can't see any upgrade apart from rolling
out the fibre connections.

At the moment I am not feeling that 10 Mbps will be acceptable after 300
Mbps.

Cheers



Dave R

[Tweed]

Post by David

Post by Chris

Post by David

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by David
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low
grade legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming,
occasional large downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

I was able to stream HDTV quite nicely with a 25/5 VDSL connection,
the usage graph in the Draytek router I had at the time rarely showing
downloads going above 20, and mostly peaking about 15.
Your requirements might be affected by the number of people in the
household if there are several people wanting to watch different
movies at the same time. Even then it might not be a frequent problem
but I'd recommend going for fibre as soon as you can. Even the slowest
fibre connection should suit any domestic situation.
Rod.

Noting that I currently have 300 Mb down.
I'm looking for viable alternatives to VM and fibre is not available.

Do you mean full fibre (FTTH) or fibre to the cabinet (FTTC/VDSL)?
FTTC/VDSL or even ADSL2 could be fast enough depending on how far you
are from your exchange.

I am looking for Fibre To The Premises or FTTP.
This seems to have been renamed FTTH recently.
According to Zen there is only a 10 Mbps down package available to my
house.
I doubt this is FTTC unless the copper is especially flaky.
FTTC should offer at least 70 Mbps as far as I know.
Given that there are fibre connections on top of the local poles (just not
in use for the general public) I can't see any upgrade apart from rolling
out the fibre connections.
At the moment I am not feeling that 10 Mbps will be acceptable after 300
Mbps.
Cheers
Dave R

FTTC offers *up to* 80 Mbit/sec sync speed. The speed goes down quite
rapidly as the distance between your property and the cabinet increases.

Are you sure the fibre you observe on the poles isn’t for an Altnet?

[David]

Post by Tweed

Post by David

Post by Chris

Post by David

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by David
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially
low grade legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming,
occasional large downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

I was able to stream HDTV quite nicely with a 25/5 VDSL connection,
the usage graph in the Draytek router I had at the time rarely
showing downloads going above 20, and mostly peaking about 15.
Your requirements might be affected by the number of people in the
household if there are several people wanting to watch different
movies at the same time. Even then it might not be a frequent
problem but I'd recommend going for fibre as soon as you can. Even
the slowest fibre connection should suit any domestic situation.
Rod.

Noting that I currently have 300 Mb down.
I'm looking for viable alternatives to VM and fibre is not available.

Do you mean full fibre (FTTH) or fibre to the cabinet (FTTC/VDSL)?
FTTC/VDSL or even ADSL2 could be fast enough depending on how far you
are from your exchange.

I am looking for Fibre To The Premises or FTTP.
This seems to have been renamed FTTH recently.
According to Zen there is only a 10 Mbps down package available to my
house.
I doubt this is FTTC unless the copper is especially flaky.
FTTC should offer at least 70 Mbps as far as I know.
Given that there are fibre connections on top of the local poles (just
not in use for the general public) I can't see any upgrade apart from
rolling out the fibre connections.
At the moment I am not feeling that 10 Mbps will be acceptable after
300 Mbps.
Cheers
Dave R

FTTC offers *up to* 80 Mbit/sec sync speed. The speed goes down quite
rapidly as the distance between your property and the cabinet increases.
Are you sure the fibre you observe on the poles isn’t for an Altnet?

Open Reach were the people doing the install of all the fibre in ducts and
up the poles.
Allegedly there was a piece of missing equipment to do with voice in the
exchange which is preventing the roll out, but I haven't been able to
formally confirm this.

Cheers



Dave R

[Graham J]

David wrote:

[snip]

Post by David
According to Zen there is only a 10 Mbps down package available to my
house.
I doubt this is FTTC unless the copper is especially flaky.
FTTC should offer at least 70 Mbps as far as I know.

FTTC (i.e. VDSL) can give 80 MBits/sec if the distance to the green
cabinet is up to 150 metres. But if the cabinet is more than about
1.5km the speed will be less than 15Mbits/sec - see the table in:

<https://www.thinkbroadband.com/guides/fibre-fttc-ftth-broadband-guide>

At which point ADSL outperforms it.

[David]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by David
According to Zen there is only a 10 Mbps down package available to my
house.
I doubt this is FTTC unless the copper is especially flaky.
FTTC should offer at least 70 Mbps as far as I know.

FTTC (i.e. VDSL) can give 80 MBits/sec if the distance to the green
cabinet is up to 150 metres. But if the cabinet is more than about
<https://www.thinkbroadband.com/guides/fibre-fttc-ftth-broadband-guide>
At which point ADSL outperforms it.

We are 0.2 miles from the local exchange according to Google Maps.

It's raining at the moment so I can't wander around and locate the nearest
green cabinet but I would be very surprised if it is further away than the
exchange.

BT claims that Fibre Essential (35-36 Mb) and Fibre 1 (36-50 Mb) are
available at my address.

I think I will phone Zen for the low down.
I have previously found that they are honest about the capabilities of the
local connections, unlike the usual suspects.

They said they wouldn't sell me the nominally faster package because they
couldn't achieve the faster speeds over the local lines.

Also, BT wants a 24 month contract and proper fibre could be available by
then.

Cheers



Dave R

[Chris]

Post by David

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by David
According to Zen there is only a 10 Mbps down package available to my
house.
I doubt this is FTTC unless the copper is especially flaky.
FTTC should offer at least 70 Mbps as far as I know.

FTTC (i.e. VDSL) can give 80 MBits/sec if the distance to the green
cabinet is up to 150 metres. But if the cabinet is more than about
<https://www.thinkbroadband.com/guides/fibre-fttc-ftth-broadband-guide>
At which point ADSL outperforms it.

We are 0.2 miles from the local exchange according to Google Maps.
It's raining at the moment so I can't wander around and locate the nearest
green cabinet but I would be very surprised if it is further away than the
exchange.
BT claims that Fibre Essential (35-36 Mb) and Fibre 1 (36-50 Mb) are
available at my address.

That's definitely fast enough. Even at the lower end.

Post by David
I think I will phone Zen for the low down.
I have previously found that they are honest about the capabilities of the
local connections, unlike the usual suspects.
They said they wouldn't sell me the nominally faster package because they
couldn't achieve the faster speeds over the local lines.
Also, BT wants a 24 month contract and proper fibre could be available by
then.

BT aren't the cheapest. Try plusnet as well.

Post by David
Cheers
Dave R

[JMB99]

As long as I can remember there have been people claiming that everyone
needed much more bandwidth than they already had. In the early days
when most were on dial-up, there was a vocal minority who wanted much
more, seemingly so they could download (illegally) movies and of course
they did not want to pay their ISP more, they wanted the rest of us to
subsidise them.

It has become political with some politicians telling people that they
cannot possibly exit with at least Gb/s bandwidth, encouraged by
companies wanting subsidies to connect everyone up at those speeds.

But I regularly speak to people who use very much less than that and
perhaps only once a week.

The mind boggles at what hackers etc will be able to do with connections
like that when many of users might not even have a firewall.

[grinch]

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.
Cheers
Dave R

After 18 years working for various ISP's. As much as the sales people
can con them into buying. 1 gig seem to be the norm at the moment.

It always amuses me that people think they have a 1 gig connection to
the internet what ever that is.

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by grinch
After 18 years working for various ISP's. As much as the sales people
can con them into buying. 1 gig seem to be the norm at the moment.
It always amuses me that people think they have a 1 gig connection to
the internet what ever that is.

Really ?

It would be nice to have the choice - this area is clearly at the back
of the queue for OR FTTP

[Woody]

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.

Be aware that VM have changed the rules as of last mid-year. The annual
increase is now part of the contract and cannot be used as an excuse to
go elsewhere without paying for early contract termination - and that is
roughly your monthly payment times the number of months!

If you are need the end of contract and can withstand paying them off.
ring Retentions and see what they can offer you. I was on about £46 and
going up to £51pm, but their notification letter said that a new
customer would be paying £34pm. I called Retentions and pointed out that
I can have 150Mb both ways for about £27pm (accepted you do not have
FTTH yet) but it pushed them and I got my current data rate for £35pm
(which will go up to £57 at the end of contract.) Retentions is on 150
if you have a VM line, or 0345 454 1111 on any other, option 1, 4, 4 but
before 20h00 weekdays.

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.

It isn't clear if there will be satellite TV after the end of the
decade as the various satellites go past end-of-life and the costs
can't be justified.

But, for the moment, if you are only streaming SD (or occasional HD) to
your laptop 20-30Mb/s is probably enough. If you want 4K you'll need a
bit more.

I have found that it is the upstream that can be an issue. Even if
downstream looks good enough, if your asymmetry is large then it can be
throttled by upstream to a degree.

What sort of FTTC can you expect? The BT Wholesale site can be helpful
here: https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

[Tweed]

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.
Cheers
Dave R

Time to phone VM and negotiate. They gave in rather quickly to my son
recently and offered him the same price as a new customer. Halved his
monthly payment.

Happily I managed to sack them as CityFibre have now provided me physical
service and IDnet are providing an excellent ISP offering.

As to your original question, I certainly notice the difference between
500/500 and 80/20 (which I sometimes use at another location) even for
basic web browsing.

[Woody]

Post by Tweed

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.
Cheers
Dave R

Time to phone VM and negotiate. They gave in rather quickly to my son
recently and offered him the same price as a new customer. Halved his
monthly payment.
Happily I managed to sack them as CityFibre have now provided me physical
service and IDnet are providing an excellent ISP offering.
As to your original question, I certainly notice the difference between
500/500 and 80/20 (which I sometimes use at another location) even for
basic web browsing.

VM managed to push me up (Foc) to 100/20 from 50/5 and it was certainly
noticeable. Then when they pushed the price up as well I asked to be
reduced to 50/5 and by comparison it crawls.
I wonder if they reduce effective speed by simply putting in a time
delay between my request and their reply?

[Peter Johnson]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 18:40:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed

Post by Tweed
Time to phone VM and negotiate. They gave in rather quickly to my son
recently and offered him the same price as a new customer. Halved his
monthly payment.

They weren't prepared to move at all when a near neighbour rang them
but he was able to extract himself from them and is now with a
CityFibre ISP. Haven't seen him to ascertain the details.

[Tweed]

Post by Peter Johnson
On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 18:40:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed

Post by Tweed
Time to phone VM and negotiate. They gave in rather quickly to my son
recently and offered him the same price as a new customer. Halved his
monthly payment.

They weren't prepared to move at all when a near neighbour rang them
but he was able to extract himself from them and is now with a
CityFibre ISP. Haven't seen him to ascertain the details.

Presumably Cityfibre isn’t an option for you? When I sacked VM I had
numerous offers emailed to me to try to get me to come back. They were
still more expensive than the CF ISP offering, but not as outlandish as
their previous charges.

[David Wade]

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

Is that really all you have available? Are you on the BT Fibre build plan?

https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband

Post by David
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.
Cheers
Dave R

Dave

[Tweed]

Post by David Wade

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

Is that really all you have available? Are you on the BT Fibre build plan?
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband

Exceptions apply, but I’ve gained the general impression that Open Reach
FTTP builds are a low priority where there is an existing well established
VM presence.

[Graham J]

Tweed wrote:

[snip]

Post by Tweed

Post by David Wade
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband

Exceptions apply, but I’ve gained the general impression that Open Reach
FTTP builds are a low priority where there is an existing well established
VM presence.

FTTP builds appear to be prioritised in well populated rural areas where
FTTC struggles to achieve anything better than ADSL speeds.

An example is my village (near Thetford in Norfolk, so not very rural).
Properties more than about 500 metres from the green cabinet have had
FTTP since February 2023, but those nearer than 500 metres have FTTC and
generally get 30 Mbits/sec download speeds; and are not being offered
FTTP at present or in the foreseeable future.

By contrast I know of properly rural locations where the only available
service is ADSL at about 1.5 Mbits/sec download, 448 kbits/sec upload.
In these location FTTP is not being offered, and it is not clear what
Openreach will do at the end of 2025 when they discontinue POTS.

One such user has been told:

"... there is no chance of connection to any digital pathway but the
copper line will remain available even after the general cut off date".

I suspect new customers in such areas will be deemed to have put
themselves intentionally outside the geographic area for any Universal
Service Obligation so will be offered FTTP on the basis of £50,000 up
front plus engineering charges dependent on the distance. So not easily
affordable even for very profitable large farms!

[Tweed]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Tweed

Post by David Wade
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband

Exceptions apply, but I’ve gained the general impression that Open Reach
FTTP builds are a low priority where there is an existing well established
VM presence.

FTTP builds appear to be prioritised in well populated rural areas where
FTTC struggles to achieve anything better than ADSL speeds.
An example is my village (near Thetford in Norfolk, so not very rural).
Properties more than about 500 metres from the green cabinet have had
FTTP since February 2023, but those nearer than 500 metres have FTTC and
generally get 30 Mbits/sec download speeds; and are not being offered
FTTP at present or in the foreseeable future.
By contrast I know of properly rural locations where the only available
service is ADSL at about 1.5 Mbits/sec download, 448 kbits/sec upload.
In these location FTTP is not being offered, and it is not clear what
Openreach will do at the end of 2025 when they discontinue POTS.
"... there is no chance of connection to any digital pathway but the
copper line will remain available even after the general cut off date".
I suspect new customers in such areas will be deemed to have put
themselves intentionally outside the geographic area for any Universal
Service Obligation so will be offered FTTP on the basis of £50,000 up
front plus engineering charges dependent on the distance. So not easily
affordable even for very profitable large farms!

I guess Starlink will be the solution for them.

[David Wade]

Post by Tweed

Post by David Wade

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

Is that really all you have available? Are you on the BT Fibre build plan?
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband

Exceptions apply, but I’ve gained the general impression that Open Reach
FTTP builds are a low priority where there is an existing well established
VM presence.

Thats very odd as where I live, Altrincham, there is VM available to
most properties, yet we had FTTC and now FTTP an brsk are putting poles
up. Weird.

Dave

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by David Wade
Is that really all you have available? Are you on the BT Fibre build plan?
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband

Hard to say from this link - all I get is the chance to "register my
interest"


The where and when continue to be a secret

[David Wade]

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by David Wade
Is that really all you have available? Are you on the BT Fibre build plan?
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband

Hard to say from this link - all I get is the chance to "register my
interest"

you scrolled too far...

Post by Abandoned Trolley
The where and when continue to be a secret

If you scroll down to the map, just after the line

"Is my exchange in your build plan?"

there is a box into which you can put a post code, and it will show you
where BT is up to, building, planned, or CBA.

you don't even need a post code. Click roughly where your house is and
you can scroll...

Dave

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by David Wade
If you scroll down to the map, just after the line
"Is my exchange in your build plan?"
there is a box into which you can put a post code, and it will show you
where BT is up to, building, planned, or CBA.
you don't even need a post code. Click roughly where your house is and
you can scroll...
Dave

Thanks for that

[David]

Post by David Wade

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a
TV box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month
which is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films
etc. to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give
recording capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM
specific apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP
which we can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low
grade legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional
large downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

Is that really all you have available? Are you on the BT Fibre build plan?
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-

full-fibre-broadband

It says "we are pedalling as fast as we can".
I registered with them a year or so back to be notified when fibre was
available.
Now on the Zen notify list as well.

So yes, this really is all the I have available to me.

Cheers



Dave R

[Invalid]

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.
Cheers
Dave R

I have a BT BB service.via Openreach FTTC. Sync speed is about 58Mbps,
Speed test (wired) gives 51Mbps.

Serves me fine, gives 4K streamed TV (for the football) plus downloads
and surfing, VOIP phone and WiFi calling on the mobile. I don't game,
and rarely have more than one TV/web stream running simultaneously.
Large downloads are usually limited by the server rather than the link.

The only reason I would have to switch to FTTP if it ever arrived in
this little village would be reliability, although FTTC has only been
down once this year.

[Graham J]

Invalid wrote:

[snip]

Post by Invalid
The only reason I would have to switch to FTTP if it ever arrived in
this little village would be reliability, although FTTC has only been
down once this year.

My FTTP has been down once since it was installed on 6 March 2023, from
2024 Feb 3 18:36:40 to 2024 Feb 4 21:28:22 - so about 27 hours.

Zen blamed Openreach.

[David Wade]

Post by Invalid

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.
Cheers
Dave R

I have a BT BB service.via Openreach FTTC. Sync speed is about 58Mbps,
Speed test (wired) gives 51Mbps.
Serves me fine, gives 4K streamed TV (for the football)  plus downloads
and surfing,  VOIP phone and WiFi calling on the mobile.  I don't game,
and rarely have more than one TV/web stream running simultaneously.
Large downloads are usually limited by the server rather than the link.
The only reason I would have to switch to FTTP if it ever arrived in
this little village would be reliability, although FTTC has only been
down once this year.

Whilst everyone says this I think you will find once Fibre arrives BT
will make reasons for you to switch. These may simply be financial such
as the price of FTTC is going up, or simply FTTC is going away.....

Dave

[Graham J]

David Wade wrote:

[snip]

Post by David Wade

Post by Invalid
The only reason I would have to switch to FTTP if it ever arrived in
this little village would be reliability, although FTTC has only been
down once this year.

Whilst everyone says this I think you will find once Fibre arrives BT
will make reasons for you to switch. These may simply be financial such
as the price of FTTC is going up, or simply FTTC is going away.....

FTTC is only being replaced if it performs too poorly to support VoIP.
i.e. it's too slow, or too unreliable. This is because Openreach wants
to get rid of POTS by the end of 2025.

POTS costs Openreach in terms of telephone exchange maintenance and
copper pair maintenance from the exchange. Plus the capital/rental
costs of the exchange buildings in city centres. Maintenance
particularly is an ongoing cost and will become increasingly difficult
because of the need to train new technicians as the old ones retire.

VoIP removes this problem at a stroke. Exchange maintenance becomes one
relatively skilled person at a computer.

Copper pair maintenance drops off quite a bit, but the last 500 metres
or so of copper wires to the customer still needs some maintenance in
order to support FTTC. So if this maintenance is cheaper than
installing new fibre - which it might well be in both very rural
locations, and in densely populated towns where street and building
access may be difficult, then FTTC is likely to remain indefinitely.

Once POTS has gone, every customer will have some sort of router and an
internet connection to support whatever flavour of VoIP that Openreach
choose to provide. This is the immediate problem for Openreach, as has
been noted in the popular press.

So if VoIP works using your FTTC, you may never be offered FTTP in your
lifetime.

[David Wade]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by David Wade

Post by Invalid
The only reason I would have to switch to FTTP if it ever arrived in
this little village would be reliability, although FTTC has only been
down once this year.

Whilst everyone says this I think you will find once Fibre arrives BT
will make reasons for you to switch. These may simply be financial
such as the price of FTTC is going up, or simply FTTC is going away.....

FTTC is only being replaced if it performs too poorly to support VoIP.
i.e. it's too slow, or too unreliable.  This is because Openreach wants
to get rid of POTS by the end of 2025.
POTS costs Openreach in terms of telephone exchange maintenance and
copper pair maintenance from the exchange.  Plus the capital/rental
costs of the exchange buildings in city centres.  Maintenance
particularly is an ongoing cost and will become increasingly difficult
because of the need to train new technicians as the old ones retire.
VoIP removes this problem at a stroke.  Exchange maintenance becomes one
relatively skilled person at a computer.
Copper pair maintenance drops off quite a bit, but the last 500 metres
or so of copper wires to the customer still needs some maintenance in
order to support FTTC.  So if this maintenance is cheaper than
installing new fibre - which it might well be in both very rural
locations, and in densely populated towns where street and building
access may be difficult, then FTTC is likely to remain indefinitely.
Once POTS has gone, every customer will have some sort of router and an
internet connection to support whatever flavour of VoIP that Openreach
choose to provide.  This is the immediate problem for Openreach, as has
been noted in the popular press.
So if VoIP works using your FTTC, you may never be offered FTTP in your
lifetime.

That does not seem to match what is happening here in South Manchester.
Openreach appears to be deploying FTTP in areas where FTTC and Virgin
are widely available and were BRSK is being deployed.

In areas with only poor ADSL they don't seem to be progressing as
quickly. I assume this is because they don't want to lose market share.
So on my street we have ADSL, FTTC, FTTP and Virgin. BRSK are
threatening to deploy, but I think they may need new poles and may face
some push back.

If ordering from BT the only service offered is FTTP. If you change ISP
again only FTTP.

Oddly a friend not far away can't get anything other than ADSL....

I would say given the issues over the 999 service and the fact OFCOM is
reviewing the power fail requirements of this, FTTC is also pretty much
legacy...

Dave

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Graham J
FTTC is likely to remain indefinitely.

FTTC is not maintenance free, there are mains powered DSLAM cabinets reaching
the end of their life, some are getting on for 20 years old now, PCP boxes with
all the copper jumpers that get disturbed every time a new line is added, often
introducing faults on other lines.

Full fibre is virtually maintenance free, unless mechanically damaged by lazy
builders, or installers.

Installing full fibre to some remote properties will be too expensive, but
wireless technology will probably replace the copper, no new DSLAM cabinets.

Angus

[Tweed]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

Post by Graham J
FTTC is likely to remain indefinitely.

FTTC is not maintenance free, there are mains powered DSLAM cabinets reaching
the end of their life, some are getting on for 20 years old now, PCP boxes with
all the copper jumpers that get disturbed every time a new line is added, often
introducing faults on other lines.
Full fibre is virtually maintenance free, unless mechanically damaged by lazy
builders, or installers.
Installing full fibre to some remote properties will be too expensive, but
wireless technology will probably replace the copper, no new DSLAM cabinets.
Angus

Out of curiosity why is it too expensive to serve remote properties? They
managed to string copper cables to most of them.

[MikeS]

Post by Tweed

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

Post by Graham J
FTTC is likely to remain indefinitely.

FTTC is not maintenance free, there are mains powered DSLAM cabinets reaching
the end of their life, some are getting on for 20 years old now, PCP boxes with
all the copper jumpers that get disturbed every time a new line is added, often
introducing faults on other lines.
Full fibre is virtually maintenance free, unless mechanically damaged by lazy
builders, or installers.
Installing full fibre to some remote properties will be too expensive, but
wireless technology will probably replace the copper, no new DSLAM cabinets.
Angus

Out of curiosity why is it too expensive to serve remote properties? They
managed to string copper cables to most of them.

The copper phone system was inherited from the GPO which installed it
with the brief to provide wherever feasible a universal service for the
entire country. The fibre system is being installed by private companies
with the brief to maximise their profits.

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by MikeS
The copper phone system was inherited from the GPO which
installed it with the brief to provide wherever feasible a
universal service for the entire country. The fibre system is
being installed by private companies with the brief to maximise
their profits.

Sure they could spent £100,000 installing miles of fibre to a remote property,
but that cost would need to be recovered by higher prices for the rest of us.

Most or all government regulators of privatised utilities, power, water,
telecoms, etc, are so weak the businesses do whatever is best for shareholders
and executives, customers are just cash cows to be screwed.

For instance, Why is BT still charging 28p/min for a local VoIP phone call,
when other operators can charge 1p/min. Some operators are now charging more
for UK phone calls than for Europe and the USA.

Angus

[Graham J]

Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:

[snip]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Installing full fibre to some remote properties will be too expensive, but
wireless technology will probably replace the copper, no new DSLAM cabinets.

Can you tell us anything about this wireless technology, please?

In the rural areas I know of the mobile phone service is very poor, so
are we to expect something different?

[Tweed]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Installing full fibre to some remote properties will be too expensive, but
wireless technology will probably replace the copper, no new DSLAM cabinets.

Can you tell us anything about this wireless technology, please?
In the rural areas I know of the mobile phone service is very poor, so
are we to expect something different?

Starlink is a wireless technology and apparently works very well these
days. £75/month, with some talk of cheaper packages in the future.

https://www.spacelink-installations.co.uk/blog/starlink-uk-price-guide/

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Graham J
Can you tell us anything about this wireless technology, please?

Not my field of expertise, but wireless coverage is down to low power point to
point with directional antenna or high power omni-directional.

Mobile phone coverage is not required to be universal, except perhaps EE (I
think) for the new emergency services network that is 10 years late due to lack
of coverage.

Angus

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Installing full fibre to some remote properties will be too expensive, but
wireless technology will probably replace the copper, no new DSLAM cabinets.

Can you tell us anything about this wireless technology, please?
In the rural areas I know of the mobile phone service is very poor, so are
we to expect something different?

Fixed wireless is being advertised in Lancashire, maybe not rural:
https://www.6ginternet.com/about
https://www.ixwireless.co.uk/about

Installing full fibre to rural areas can also be done:
https://b4rn.org.uk

[David Wade]

Post by Invalid

Post by David
I am currently with Virgin Media on a 300 Mb cable connection, with a TV
box with a 1TB drive.
All very nice, but they now propose to charge me over £100 a month which
is a lot of money!
At least half our viewing is over satellite plus streaming of films etc.
to a laptop and we have Humax boxes on the sat link to give recording
capability.
All in all it looks as though there is not very much which is VM specific
apart from the excellent cable service (matched only by FTTP which we
can't get yet).
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?
Recognising that this is a piece of string exercise.
Cheers
Dave R

I have a BT BB service.via Openreach FTTC. Sync speed is about 58Mbps,
Speed test (wired) gives 51Mbps.
Serves me fine, gives 4K streamed TV (for the football)  plus downloads
and surfing,  VOIP phone and WiFi calling on the mobile.  I don't game,
and rarely have more than one TV/web stream running simultaneously.
Large downloads are usually limited by the server rather than the link.
The only reason I would have to switch to FTTP if it ever arrived in
this little village would be reliability, although FTTC has only been
down once this year.

[Chris Green]

Post by David
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

We have FTTC which gives us ~ 65Mb/s down and 20Mb/s up. We don't
stream a lot but do occasionally use iPlayer, there's absoutely no
problems with that. For web and E-Mail the speed is way more than
adequate. Downloads just take as long as downloads take, if I had a
slower connection I'd simply do something else while waiting! :-)

[Tweed]

Post by Chris Green

Post by David
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

We have FTTC which gives us ~ 65Mb/s down and 20Mb/s up. We don't
stream a lot but do occasionally use iPlayer, there's absoutely no
problems with that. For web and E-Mail the speed is way more than
adequate. Downloads just take as long as downloads take, if I had a
slower connection I'd simply do something else while waiting! :-)

The other issue with a low grade legacy phone line is the short time scale
reliability. Would it be susceptible to drop outs and retries?

[Chris Green]

Post by Tweed

Post by Chris Green

Post by David
Hence the question - what speed (which would be over potentially low grade
legacy phone line) would I need to support streaming, occasional large
downloads, and the usual web and email surfing?

We have FTTC which gives us ~ 65Mb/s down and 20Mb/s up. We don't
stream a lot but do occasionally use iPlayer, there's absoutely no
problems with that. For web and E-Mail the speed is way more than
adequate. Downloads just take as long as downloads take, if I had a
slower connection I'd simply do something else while waiting! :-)

The other issue with a low grade legacy phone line is the short time scale
reliability. Would it be susceptible to drop outs and retries?

Our FTTC has been rock solid ever since we moved from ADSL. The ADSL
wasn't too bad but we did have a few times when it died.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Chris Green
Our FTTC has been rock solid ever since we moved from ADSL.

Same here

Post by Chris Green
The ADSL wasn't too bad but we did have a few times when it died.

My ADSL became abysmal after the upgrade to ADSL2+ dropped numerous
times every day.