Who are Grain Telecom

[Jason H]

I've long held that Hell would freeze over before FTTP came to our
little bit of old Trafford. Today, a bit of paper pops through the
letterbox from Grain, telling us they are digging up the street to
provide fibre broadband service. Two hours later, the only way to leave
the house is out back...

Now, I'm with BT. Does this mean a full fibre upgrade (currency FTTC)
is on the cards, or are Grain a completely separate thing that does not
partner with BT/OpenReach in any way?

[Andy Burns]

Now, I'm with BT.  Does this mean a full fibre upgrade (currency FTTC)
is on the cards

unlikely

or are Grain a completely separate thing that does not
partner with BT/OpenReach in any way?

I should imagine they're an alt-net, with the standard business model
hoping to get bought by e.g VMO2 or CityFibre before anyone realises
they've dug lots of holes, run out of money and got very few customers ...

[Tweed]

Post by Andy Burns

Now, I'm with BT.  Does this mean a full fibre upgrade (currency FTTC)
is on the cards

unlikely

or are Grain a completely separate thing that does not
partner with BT/OpenReach in any way?

I should imagine they're an alt-net, with the standard business model
hoping to get bought by e.g VMO2 or CityFibre before anyone realises
they've dug lots of holes, run out of money and got very few customers ...

There’s apparently 150 or so alt nets at the moment. The money is running
out as the cost of capital has gone up and the take up of their services is
lower than hoped. Many altnets are struggling/going to struggle to
refinance. It’s not at all obvious that the failing ones will get bought
out, especially if there is competition in some of their patch. It’s not a
repeat of the cable company consolidation as they were all regional
monopolies.

[Theo]

Post by Tweed
There’s apparently 150 or so alt nets at the moment. The money is running
out as the cost of capital has gone up and the take up of their services is
lower than hoped. Many altnets are struggling/going to struggle to
refinance. It’s not at all obvious that the failing ones will get bought
out, especially if there is competition in some of their patch. It’s not a
repeat of the cable company consolidation as they were all regional
monopolies.

I'd expect that some may go bankrupt, but somebody may pick up the FTTP
assets in the fire sale. Many of them are installing in Openreach ducts, so
they don't have so much physical plant to maintain. I doubt OR will be
ripping out the fibre if they haven't paid the bill, and if OR were to
repossess the assets in lieu of rental fees, well they can add it to the OR
network[*].

So, once the physical fibre is in the ground, some financier may lose their
shirt but I think chances are good it'll stay working.

Theo

[*] some of them use dedicated fibres rather than OR's PON fibre-sharing,
but OR could work out how to integrate that

[Tweed]

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
There’s apparently 150 or so alt nets at the moment. The money is running
out as the cost of capital has gone up and the take up of their services is
lower than hoped. Many altnets are struggling/going to struggle to
refinance. It’s not at all obvious that the failing ones will get bought
out, especially if there is competition in some of their patch. It’s not a
repeat of the cable company consolidation as they were all regional
monopolies.

I'd expect that some may go bankrupt, but somebody may pick up the FTTP
assets in the fire sale. Many of them are installing in Openreach ducts, so
they don't have so much physical plant to maintain. I doubt OR will be
ripping out the fibre if they haven't paid the bill, and if OR were to
repossess the assets in lieu of rental fees, well they can add it to the OR
network[*].
So, once the physical fibre is in the ground, some financier may lose their
shirt but I think chances are good it'll stay working.
Theo
[*] some of them use dedicated fibres rather than OR's PON fibre-sharing,
but OR could work out how to integrate that

The duct issue is interesting. Cityfibre claim to be great users of PIA
(physical infrastructure access) but they still like digging. They are
installing on my late 1980s estate, which is entirely ducted. However CF
seem to be installing a lot of purple pipe and pavement cabinets. It seems
they only want to use the ducts for the final run into the houses. So I’m
guessing digging is cheaper than the PIA rental fees for much of the
install.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Tweed

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
There’s apparently 150 or so alt nets at the moment. The money is running
out as the cost of capital has gone up and the take up of their services is
lower than hoped. Many altnets are struggling/going to struggle to
refinance. It’s not at all obvious that the failing ones will get bought
out, especially if there is competition in some of their patch. It’s not a
repeat of the cable company consolidation as they were all regional
monopolies.

I'd expect that some may go bankrupt, but somebody may pick up the FTTP
assets in the fire sale. Many of them are installing in Openreach ducts, so
they don't have so much physical plant to maintain. I doubt OR will be
ripping out the fibre if they haven't paid the bill, and if OR were to
repossess the assets in lieu of rental fees, well they can add it to the OR
network[*].
So, once the physical fibre is in the ground, some financier may lose their
shirt but I think chances are good it'll stay working.
Theo
[*] some of them use dedicated fibres rather than OR's PON fibre-sharing,
but OR could work out how to integrate that

The duct issue is interesting. Cityfibre claim to be great users of PIA
(physical infrastructure access) but they still like digging. They are
installing on my late 1980s estate, which is entirely ducted. However CF
seem to be installing a lot of purple pipe and pavement cabinets. It seems
they only want to use the ducts for the final run into the houses. So I’m
guessing digging is cheaper than the PIA rental fees for much of the
install.

They can amortise the dig up. Rented ducts depend on sales and the savvy know they don't need FTTP, or at least that they don't need to pay for it.

This may change when BT get around to slugging FTTC tp [ush customers onto more espensive fibre, BUT I measured >200Mbps on 5g recently when I noticed coverage had reached where i was,

[Tweed]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Tweed

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
There’s apparently 150 or so alt nets at the moment. The money is running
out as the cost of capital has gone up and the take up of their services is
lower than hoped. Many altnets are struggling/going to struggle to
refinance. It’s not at all obvious that the failing ones will get bought
out, especially if there is competition in some of their patch. It’s not a
repeat of the cable company consolidation as they were all regional
monopolies.

I'd expect that some may go bankrupt, but somebody may pick up the FTTP
assets in the fire sale. Many of them are installing in Openreach ducts, so
they don't have so much physical plant to maintain. I doubt OR will be
ripping out the fibre if they haven't paid the bill, and if OR were to
repossess the assets in lieu of rental fees, well they can add it to the OR
network[*].
So, once the physical fibre is in the ground, some financier may lose their
shirt but I think chances are good it'll stay working.
Theo
[*] some of them use dedicated fibres rather than OR's PON fibre-sharing,
but OR could work out how to integrate that

The duct issue is interesting. Cityfibre claim to be great users of PIA
(physical infrastructure access) but they still like digging. They are
installing on my late 1980s estate, which is entirely ducted. However CF
seem to be installing a lot of purple pipe and pavement cabinets. It seems
they only want to use the ducts for the final run into the houses. So I’m
guessing digging is cheaper than the PIA rental fees for much of the
install.

They can amortise the dig up. Rented ducts depend on sales and the savvy
know they don't need FTTP, or at least that they don't need to pay for it.
This may change when BT get around to slugging FTTC tp [ush customers
onto more espensive fibre, BUT I measured >200Mbps on 5g recently when I
noticed coverage had reached where i was,

You won’t get those 5G speeds if others start to use it, this being a very
much contended system. Even Virgin Media with co-ax distribution struggled
with contention until they chopped their distribution into ever smaller
segments. Fibre, as implemented for domestic use, is also contended, but
the capacity to be shared is so very much higher in the first place. FTTC
will slowly fade as the maintenance costs become too great.

[[e-mail]]

SNIP

Post by Tweed

This may change when BT get around to slugging FTTC to push customers
onto more expensive fibre, BUT I measured >200Mbps on 5g recently when I
noticed coverage had reached where i was,

You won’t get those 5G speeds if others start to use it, this being a very
much contended system.

5G is less contended than 4G, which in turn is less contended than 3G...
Indeed its main purpose is to provide more connections in busy locations - transport hubs, sports venues etc.

Post by Tweed
Even Virgin Media with co-ax distribution struggled
with contention until they chopped their distribution into ever smaller
segments.

The uplink was the problem.

Post by Tweed
Fibre, as implemented for domestic use, is also contended, but
the capacity to be shared is so very much higher in the first place.

That is the nature of statistical multiplexing.

Post by Tweed
FTTC will slowly fade as the maintenance costs become too great.

It will be gradually superseded. Faster once ISP's stop charging a premium for FTTP.

[Tweed]

Post by ***@gmail.com
SNIP

Post by Tweed

This may change when BT get around to slugging FTTC to push customers
onto more expensive fibre, BUT I measured >200Mbps on 5g recently when I
noticed coverage had reached where i was,

You won’t get those 5G speeds if others start to use it, this being a very
much contended system.

5G is less contended than 4G, which in turn is less contended than 3G...
Indeed its main purpose is to provide more connections in busy locations
- transport hubs, sports venues etc.

Post by Tweed
Even Virgin Media with co-ax distribution struggled
with contention until they chopped their distribution into ever smaller
segments.

The uplink was the problem.

Post by Tweed
Fibre, as implemented for domestic use, is also contended, but
the capacity to be shared is so very much higher in the first place.

That is the nature of statistical multiplexing.

Post by Tweed
FTTC will slowly fade as the maintenance costs become too great.

It will be gradually superseded. Faster once ISP's stop charging a premium for FTTP.

I think you’ll find FTTC will be charged at a premium once Open Reach want
rid of it. Anyway, do ISPs these days charge a premium for FTTP over FTTC
for a broadly similar speed offering? I’ve just checked Zen who want £34
for 80 Mbit/sec FTTC and £35 for 100 Mbit FTTP

[Bob Eager]

Post by Tweed
I think you’ll find FTTC will be charged at a premium once Open Reach
want rid of it. Anyway, do ISPs these days charge a premium for FTTP
over FTTC for a broadly similar speed offering? I’ve just checked Zen
who want £34 for 80 Mbit/sec FTTC and £35 for 100 Mbit FTTP

I'm with AAISP. I changed from FTTC to FTTC, and chose the speed that had
exactly the same cost.

I went from 16/2.5 Mb/s to 300/50 Mb/s.

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

I think you_ll find FTTC will be charged at a premium once Open
Reach want rid of it.

Once exchanges reach PSTN end of life, for areas that have FTTP already they
cap the FTTC speed to 2Mb, then bar outgoing phone calls and finally cease
service six months later, assuming they've managed to upgrade everyone to FTTP
full fibre.

It started in Salisbury and Mildenhall this month, and in theory by December
2025 FTTC will be dead in areas that have full fibre.

But Openreach is only installing FTTP to about 300K homes each month, 10
million done, 15 million left, which I make until 2027. Unless they speed up or
buy and integrate all the full fibre competitors.

Angus

[Graham J]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

I think you_ll find FTTC will be charged at a premium once Open
Reach want rid of it.

Once exchanges reach PSTN end of life, for areas that have FTTP already they
cap the FTTC speed to 2Mb, then bar outgoing phone calls and finally cease
service six months later, assuming they've managed to upgrade everyone to FTTP
full fibre.
It started in Salisbury and Mildenhall this month, and in theory by December
2025 FTTC will be dead in areas that have full fibre.
But Openreach is only installing FTTP to about 300K homes each month, 10
million done, 15 million left, which I make until 2027. Unless they speed up or
buy and integrate all the full fibre competitors.

Openreach technicians that I talk to when I see them working locally
suggest 2035 for FTTP completely installed throughout the UK. That will
mean FTTC (with its associated unreliability) will be used to support
"Digital Voice" or whatever your phone company sells you for telephone
calls.

Some areas can't even get FTTC (either "lack of plant" or customer too
far from exchange) so one hopes that these people will get FTTP.

I'm in a rural Norfolk village that only got FTTC about 3 years ago, but
happily FTTP arrived 2 months ago. Only one connection drop (PPP
failure) in that time, whereas FTTC (1.1km to green cabinet) would drop
the connection and re-sync every few days.

[Woody]

Post by Graham J

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

I think you_ll find FTTC will be charged at a premium once Open
Reach want rid of it.

Once exchanges reach PSTN end of life, for areas that have FTTP already they
cap the FTTC speed to 2Mb, then bar outgoing phone calls and finally cease
service six months later, assuming they've managed to upgrade everyone to FTTP
full fibre.
It started in Salisbury and Mildenhall this month, and in theory by December
2025 FTTC will be dead in areas that have full fibre.
But Openreach is only installing FTTP to about 300K homes each month, 10
million done, 15 million left, which I make until 2027. Unless they speed up or
buy and integrate all the full fibre competitors.

Openreach technicians that I talk to when I see them working locally
suggest 2035 for FTTP completely installed throughout the UK.  That will
mean FTTC (with its associated unreliability) will be used to support
"Digital Voice" or whatever your phone company sells you for telephone
calls.
Some areas can't even get FTTC (either "lack of plant" or customer too
far from exchange) so one hopes that these people will get FTTP.
I'm in a rural Norfolk village that only got FTTC about 3 years ago, but
happily FTTP arrived 2 months ago.  Only one connection drop (PPP
failure) in that time, whereas FTTC (1.1km to green cabinet) would drop
the connection and re-sync every few days.

This non-availability will end up nipping OR in the bum.

Take here - Harrogate - for instance. Harrogate and adjoining
Knaresborough have four exchanges between them. Two of those -
Knaresborough and Starbeck have no FTTP capability, but the other two
do. There are about four rural exchanges some distance out of Harrogate
two of which have some FTTP and the others nothing.
Accepted the rural exchanges will require serious civils to get fibre
there, but how they can seemingly not bother about two local exchanges
that represent maybe 30% or more of the urban area baffles me.
Could it be because we are a VM cabled area, and since the Pandemic
started CityFibre have piped most of the urban area as well?

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

Post by Woody
Accepted the rural exchanges will require serious civils to get
fibre there, but how they can seemingly not bother about two
local exchanges that represent maybe 30% or more of the urban
area baffles me.
Could it be because we are a VM cabled area, and since the
Pandemic started CityFibre have piped most of the urban area as
well?

Probably, I'm in Croydon which is VM cabled and has Community Fibre attempting
to install full fibre using Openreach ducts and poles, but Openreach has no
plans for full fibre here before 2025, nor in many other London areas. And
people close to the exchanges don't even have FTTC.

Unfortunately both VM and Community Fibre can be selective about who is offered
service, too much trouble and they don't bother. At least Openreach takes
service more seriously.

Community Fibre pulled fibre past my pole 9 months ago and offered service to
most in other streets, but the duct between the manhole and pole was blocked
with tarmac so mine got skipped. There have been several visits over 9 months
and a roll of fibre and GPON box is sitting at the bottom for several weeks,
but still no service.

Angus

[Graham J]

Woody wrote:

[snip]

Post by Woody
This non-availability will end up nipping OR in the bum.
Take here - Harrogate - for instance. Harrogate and adjoining
Knaresborough have four exchanges between them. Two of those -
Knaresborough and Starbeck have no FTTP capability, but the other two
do. There are about four rural exchanges some distance out of Harrogate
two of which have some FTTP and the others nothing.
Accepted the rural exchanges will require serious civils to get fibre
there, but how they can seemingly not bother about two local exchanges
that represent maybe 30% or more of the urban area baffles me.
Could it be because we are a VM cabled area, and since the Pandemic
started CityFibre have piped most of the urban area as well?

I don't think that the availability of fibre in the exchanges matters at
all. FTTP goes from the customer premises directly to a fibre centre -
possibly via optical concentrators (not sure it that's the correct word)
- and the fibres can go a significant distance - tens of km (unlike the
copper pairs for FTTC, ADSL, or even voice).

What OR will then be able to achieve is the complete removal of local
exchanges with all their difficult-to-maintain copper wiring and
switchgear. So several city-centre premises will be up for sale, making
them some money. To say nothing of ripping out the copper wires and
selling them for the scrap metal.

Any staff needed to service customer enquiries of any sort can work from
home - anwhere there is a reasonable internet connection. Since FTTP
can potentially offer 10GB symmetrical this could be virtually anywhere.

[Abandoned_Trolley]

Post by Graham J
[snip]
  So several city-centre premises will be up for sale, making
them some money.

Several city-centre premises may well be up for sale - but I dont think
OR will be selling them.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Abandoned_Trolley

several city-centre premises will be up for sale, making them
some money.

Several city-centre premises may well be up for sale - but I dont think
OR will be selling them.

Telereal Trillium are the owners (for 20+ years) but BT/OR can get some
kickback as individual buildings are vacated, if change of use planning
permission increases the value ...

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

So several city-centre premises will be up for sale, making them
some money.

Openreach plans to exit 4,500 exchange buildings by the early 2030s.

Just needs a few data centres.

Angus

[[e-mail]]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Post by Woody
This non-availability will end up nipping OR in the bum.
Take here - Harrogate - for instance. Harrogate and adjoining
Knaresborough have four exchanges between them. Two of those -
Knaresborough and Starbeck have no FTTP capability, but the other two
do. There are about four rural exchanges some distance out of Harrogate
two of which have some FTTP and the others nothing.
Accepted the rural exchanges will require serious civils to get fibre
there, but how they can seemingly not bother about two local exchanges
that represent maybe 30% or more of the urban area baffles me.
Could it be because we are a VM cabled area, and since the Pandemic
started CityFibre have piped most of the urban area as well?

I don't think that the availability of fibre in the exchanges matters at
all. FTTP goes from the customer premises directly to a fibre centre -
possibly via optical concentrators (not sure it that's the correct word)
- and the fibres can go a significant distance - tens of km (unlike the
copper pairs for FTTC, ADSL, or even voice).
What OR will then be able to achieve is the complete removal of local
exchanges with all their difficult-to-maintain copper wiring and
switchgear. So several city-centre premises will be up for sale, making
them some money. To say nothing of ripping out the copper wires and
selling them for the scrap metal.
Any staff needed to service customer enquiries of any sort can work from
home - anwhere there is a reasonable internet connection. Since FTTP
can potentially offer 10GB symmetrical this could be virtually anywhere.
--
Graham J

I live in Didsbury south Manchester. Our local exchange is around a mile away and by now BT alone probably serves over 50k connections from it: -
https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm?xid=1796172&locality=11551

Now there are a lot of ducts under the area (a hangover from WWII), however even at one tiny fibre per connection, they would cram out the ducts and then some.

BT already has its concentration points at its cabinets, and in addition has been systematically migrating subscribers onto digital line recently whenever they make any change of service - I just ordered a Wi-Fi extender and I got a new Smart Hub 2 and digital line whether I liked it or not. Someone has run fibre down our [private] road, underground and on poles recently too.

Given the dire state of the 1970's aluminium POTS wiring we rely on now, I think we will be migrated to fibre fairly soon, just as a fibre modem and plug it into the WAN port on their hub.

[Andy Burns]

Post by ***@gmail.com
even at one tiny fibre per connection, they would cram out the ducts and then some.

But it's numerous connections per wavelength, per fibre ...

[Tweed]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by ***@gmail.com
even at one tiny fibre per connection, they would cram out the ducts and then some.

But it's numerous connections per wavelength, per fibre ...

Just think how VM currently serve their network. Ignoring the coax local
loop, the rest is fibre and goes back to roughly one “exchange” building
per city. Certainly nothing like the huge number of exchange buildings that
OR currently need.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Tweed

Post by Andy Burns

Post by ***@gmail.com
even at one tiny fibre per connection, they would cram out the ducts and then some.

But it's numerous connections per wavelength, per fibre ...

Just think how VM currently serve their network. Ignoring the coax local
loop, the rest is fibre and goes back to roughly one “exchange” building
per city. Certainly nothing like the huge number of exchange buildings that
OR currently need.

I think the VM network here in Basingstoke, is fed from Reading. I'm not
aware of any building in Basingstoke.

By the way, a pot hole has opened up in the middle our road, and proudly
sitting there just 40mm below the road surface is a green Virgin fibre
tube, hardly worth digging a trench at all. Useless useless useless
company.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Mark Carver
I think the VM network here in Basingstoke, is fed from Reading. I'm not
aware of any building in Basingstoke.

Their network map claims two PoP sites in Basingstoke

<https://www.virginmediabusiness.co.uk/pdf/Products/VMB-Wholesale/Virgin-Media-Business-Wholesale-interactive-network-map.pdf>

Not sure how small those can be? The one listed for leicester consists
of a few industrial units, you'd only notice it from the VMO2 vans outside.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Mark Carver
I think the VM network here in Basingstoke, is fed from Reading. I'm
not aware of any building in Basingstoke.

Their network map claims two PoP sites in Basingstoke
<https://www.virginmediabusiness.co.uk/pdf/Products/VMB-Wholesale/Virgin-Media-Business-Wholesale-interactive-network-map.pdf>
Not sure how small those can be?  The one listed for leicester
consists of a few industrial units, you'd only notice it from the VMO2
vans outside.

They're probably located in unlocked wooden garden sheds, I can't ever
recall seeing a concentration anywhere of Virgin vans. Too busy out
continuously wrapping Selotape around their street cabinet doors

[Theo]

Post by Mark Carver
I think the VM network here in Basingstoke, is fed from Reading. I'm not
aware of any building in Basingstoke.

Wasn't VM (or rather ntl) HQ in Basingstoke at one time?

(a vague memory of 'Bartley Wood Business Park' which it seems is in Hook,
but I think they wrote Basingstoke in the address)

Theo

[Mark Carver]

Post by Theo

Post by Mark Carver
I think the VM network here in Basingstoke, is fed from Reading. I'm not
aware of any building in Basingstoke.

Wasn't VM (or rather ntl) HQ in Basingstoke at one time?
(a vague memory of 'Bartley Wood Business Park' which it seems is in Hook,
but I think they wrote Basingstoke in the address)

NTL do indeed have an admin centre (there's nothing 'technical' there as
far as I know) in Hook

Never claim in front of a Hook resident that's it's associated with
Basingstoke !  It's its own Post Town now anyway.

The cable network NTL inherited was TeleCentrial, who were (locally)
based in Reading. They extended into Basingstoke around the time they
were absorbed into NTL I seem to recall.
The fibres are buried under the A33 between Reading and Basingstoke.
There were months of roadworks and delays while it was happening. Pre
Covid the entire population of one town seemed to commute to the other !

[[e-mail]]

SNIPPED bit reinstated: -
"

Post by Graham J
FTTP goes from the customer premises directly to a fibre centre -
possibly via optical concentrators (not sure it that's the correct word)
- and the fibres can go a significant distance - tens of km (unlike the
copper pairs for FTTC, ADSL, or even voice)."

Post by ***@gmail.com
even at one tiny fibre per connection, they would cram out the ducts and then some.

But it's numerous connections per wavelength, per fibre ...

Indeed, but NOT if every fibre goes from subscriber to exchange. I.E. there would have to be optical concentrators. Fortuitously BT has erected cabinets with fibre connections to the main exchange all around the area. The current FTTC to fibre concentrators in them would simply be swapped out for FTTP to fibre concentrators and arguably in time the exchange could be similarly replaced.

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Post by ***@gmail.com
SNIPPED bit reinstated: -
"

Post by Graham J
FTTP goes from the customer premises directly to a fibre centre -
possibly via optical concentrators (not sure it that's the correct word)
- and the fibres can go a significant distance - tens of km (unlike the
copper pairs for FTTC, ADSL, or even voice)."

Post by ***@gmail.com
even at one tiny fibre per connection, they would cram out the ducts and then some.

But it's numerous connections per wavelength, per fibre ...

Indeed, but NOT if every fibre goes from subscriber to exchange. I.E. there would have to be optical concentrators. Fortuitously BT has erected cabinets with fibre connections to the main exchange all around the area. The current FTTC to fibre concentrators in them would simply be swapped out for FTTP to fibre concentrators and arguably in time the exchange

could be similarly replaced.
Er. No. The FTTP infrastructure is typically bypassing the FTTC
cabinets - they don't need power for PON (the P is important, here) and
it isn't so much concentrators heading back to the exchange but
splitters (PON here) to split for distribution.

There will be Openreach Handover Points but there will be many fewer
than exchanges

[Theo]

Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Er. No. The FTTP infrastructure is typically bypassing the FTTC
cabinets - they don't need power for PON (the P is important, here) and
it isn't so much concentrators heading back to the exchange but
splitters (PON here) to split for distribution.
There will be Openreach Handover Points but there will be many fewer
than exchanges

The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway. They get vandalised, driven
into, etc. The splitters are roughly the size of a loaf of bread and can
fit down a manhole out of the way. They just open the manhole and fish them
out when they need to work on them.

Theo

[[e-mail]]

Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Er. No. The FTTP infrastructure is typically bypassing the FTTC
cabinets - they don't need power for PON (the P is important, here) and
it isn't so much concentrators heading back to the exchange but
splitters (PON here) to split for distribution.
There will be Openreach Handover Points but there will be many fewer
than exchanges

The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway. They get vandalised, driven
into, etc. The splitters are roughly the size of a loaf of bread and can
fit down a manhole out of the way. They just open the manhole and fish them
out when they need to work on them.
Theo

True about cabinets, Virgin ones are worse, one near me leaked gas and another had its back left open in the rain for months after an engineer visit.

Anyway a little Google better informed me that BT's Connectorised Block Terminal (CBT) is small enough to go up the top of a pole.

Not quite sure how they will split it without power unless they send all messages to every modem and let the modem filter out the messages for that termination.

[Tweed]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Er. No. The FTTP infrastructure is typically bypassing the FTTC
cabinets - they don't need power for PON (the P is important, here) and
it isn't so much concentrators heading back to the exchange but
splitters (PON here) to split for distribution.
There will be Openreach Handover Points but there will be many fewer
than exchanges

The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway. They get vandalised, driven
into, etc. The splitters are roughly the size of a loaf of bread and can
fit down a manhole out of the way. They just open the manhole and fish them
out when they need to work on them.
Theo

True about cabinets, Virgin ones are worse, one near me leaked gas and
another had its back left open in the rain for months after an engineer visit.
Anyway a little Google better informed me that BT's Connectorised Block
Terminal (CBT) is small enough to go up the top of a pole.
Not quite sure how they will split it without power unless they send all
messages to every modem and let the modem filter out the messages for that termination.

That’s exactly how it’s done. Every customer on the same segment sees the
same light. However the data streams are encrypted and the endpoint
equipment has a key that can only decrypt the data intended for that
property.

[Graham J]

Tweed wrote:

[snip]

Post by Tweed
That’s exactly how it’s done. Every customer on the same segment sees the
same light. However the data streams are encrypted and the endpoint
equipment has a key that can only decrypt the data intended for that
property.

Does that mean that the modem can receive two (or more) data streams,
one for broadband and another for "Digital Voice" or however your phone
service provider will deliver voice calls?

[Andy Burns]

Post by Graham J
Does that mean that the modem can receive two (or more) data streams,
one for broadband and another for "Digital Voice" or however your phone
service provider will deliver voice calls?

Well ...

You know how ADSL with PPPoA can support multiple VC/VP, yet openreach
don't do that?

And VDSL with PPPoE can support multiple VLANs, yet openreach don't do
that (except maybe for TV multicast)?

What openreach do have is a 4 port ONT that supports multiple routers
connecting to a single fibre into the building

<https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/01/a-look-at-openreachs-future-4-port-ont-for-fttp-broadband.html>

[Andy Burns]

Post by Theo
The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway.

When we had ADSL there was 'always' a BT van in the street, or at the
nearby cabinet, since VDSL the vans are a rare sight.

The virgin fibre cabinets here are small and don't get vandalised as
there's almost nothing in them.

Post by Theo
They get vandalised, driven into, etc.

There is a virgin coax cabinet in the corner of a local toolstation car
park that's constantly getting rammed and wrapped in gaffer tape to
'repair' it, others seem to live under permanent canvas hoods.

[Woody]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway.

When we had ADSL there was 'always' a BT van in the street, or at the
nearby cabinet, since VDSL the vans are a rare sight.
The virgin fibre cabinets here are small and don't get vandalised as
there's almost nothing in them.

Post by Theo
They get vandalised, driven into, etc.

There is a virgin coax cabinet in the corner of a local toolstation car
park that's constantly getting rammed and wrapped in gaffer tape to
'repair' it, others seem to live under permanent canvas hoods.

Reporting number for VM street cab issues 24/7

0330 333 0444

[[e-mail]]

Post by Woody

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway.

When we had ADSL there was 'always' a BT van in the street, or at the
nearby cabinet, since VDSL the vans are a rare sight.
The virgin fibre cabinets here are small and don't get vandalised as
there's almost nothing in them.

Post by Theo
They get vandalised, driven into, etc.

There is a virgin coax cabinet in the corner of a local toolstation car
park that's constantly getting rammed and wrapped in gaffer tape to
'repair' it, others seem to live under permanent canvas hoods.

Reporting number for VM street cab issues 24/7
0330 333 0444

Good luck with that - I reported the one with the doors open twice and SFA as a result.

[Woody]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Woody

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway.

When we had ADSL there was 'always' a BT van in the street, or at the
nearby cabinet, since VDSL the vans are a rare sight.
The virgin fibre cabinets here are small and don't get vandalised as
there's almost nothing in them.

Post by Theo
They get vandalised, driven into, etc.

There is a virgin coax cabinet in the corner of a local toolstation car
park that's constantly getting rammed and wrapped in gaffer tape to
'repair' it, others seem to live under permanent canvas hoods.

Reporting number for VM street cab issues 24/7
0330 333 0444

Good luck with that - I reported the one with the doors open twice and SFA as a result.

I didn't say they would do anything about it, I was just trying to be
helpful to our readers.....

[Theo]

Post by Woody
Could it be because we are a VM cabled area, and since the Pandemic
started CityFibre have piped most of the urban area as well?

Yes, the pot of subsidy money only covers properties that don't already have
'gigabit capable' (whatever that means) broadband. VM is 'capable', so
those streets get lower down the priority list - then it's just a question
of whether it's economic to do it without subsidy. Since the subsidies may
go away at some point, I suspect OR are trying to nail subsidised areas
first.

The same happened with the FTTC rollout. Where I used to live there was VM
so they didn't get subsidy to install FTTC. Even today your choices are VM
or 11Mbps ADSL. (It is now planned for Cityfibre)

Theo

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Post by Woody

Post by Graham J

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

I think you_ll find FTTC will be charged at a premium once Open
Reach want rid of it.

Once exchanges reach PSTN end of life, for areas that have FTTP already they
cap the FTTC speed to 2Mb, then bar outgoing phone calls and finally cease
service six months later, assuming they've managed to upgrade everyone to FTTP
full fibre.
It started in Salisbury and Mildenhall this month, and in theory by December
2025 FTTC will be dead in areas that have full fibre.
But Openreach is only installing FTTP to about 300K homes each month, 10
million done, 15 million left, which I make until 2027. Unless they speed up or
buy and integrate all the full fibre competitors.

Openreach technicians that I talk to when I see them working locally
suggest 2035 for FTTP completely installed throughout the UK.  That will
mean FTTC (with its associated unreliability) will be used to support
"Digital Voice" or whatever your phone company sells you for telephone
calls.
Some areas can't even get FTTC (either "lack of plant" or customer too
far from exchange) so one hopes that these people will get FTTP.
I'm in a rural Norfolk village that only got FTTC about 3 years ago, but
happily FTTP arrived 2 months ago.  Only one connection drop (PPP
failure) in that time, whereas FTTC (1.1km to green cabinet) would drop
the connection and re-sync every few days.

This non-availability will end up nipping OR in the bum.
Take here - Harrogate - for instance. Harrogate and adjoining
Knaresborough have four exchanges between them. Two of those -
Knaresborough and Starbeck have no FTTP capability, but the other two
do. There are about four rural exchanges some distance out of Harrogate
two of which have some FTTP and the others nothing.
Accepted the rural exchanges will require serious civils to get fibre
there, but how they can seemingly not bother about two local exchanges
that represent maybe 30% or more of the urban area baffles me.
Could it be because we are a VM cabled area, and since the Pandemic
started CityFibre have piped most of the urban area as well?

FTTP is (sort of) independent of exchanges. Once we are "all IP" there
will be some Openreach Handover Points, where the access network
connects to the actual services but there will be many, many fewer of
those than exchanges.
https://d2reref.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-all-ip-programme/exchange-exit-programme

[Mark Carver]

Post by Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
It started in Salisbury and Mildenhall this month, and in theory by December
2025 FTTC will be dead in areas that have full fibre.

On a cabinet by cabinet level, that'll be no where I suspect. In other
words there won't be 100% FTTP conversion of every home fed by copper
from any of the given thousands of FTTC cabinets. FTTC as a product
ain't going anywhere for the rest of this decade.

[Peter Johnson]

On Mon, 24 Apr 2023 18:24:43 -0000 (UTC), Tweed

Post by Tweed
The duct issue is interesting. Cityfibre claim to be great users of PIA
(physical infrastructure access) but they still like digging. They are
installing on my late 1980s estate, which is entirely ducted. However CF
seem to be installing a lot of purple pipe and pavement cabinets. It seems
they only want to use the ducts for the final run into the houses. So I’m
guessing digging is cheaper than the PIA rental fees for much of the
install.

Here, in Leicester, Zen used the BT ducts where there was capacity and
installed new ones where there wasn't, or to reach areas directly,
when BT went, literally, round the houses.
My Zen fibre connection makes use of a microduct installed in the BT
duct to the house but adjoining areas need connecting via a mini
chamber in the pavement.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Theo

Post by Tweed
There’s apparently 150 or so alt nets at the moment. The money is running
out as the cost of capital has gone up and the take up of their services is
lower than hoped. Many altnets are struggling/going to struggle to
refinance. It’s not at all obvious that the failing ones will get bought
out, especially if there is competition in some of their patch. It’s not a
repeat of the cable company consolidation as they were all regional
monopolies.

I'd expect that some may go bankrupt, but somebody may pick up the FTTP
assets in the fire sale. Many of them are installing in Openreach ducts, so
they don't have so much physical plant to maintain. I doubt OR will be
ripping out the fibre if they haven't paid the bill, and if OR were to
repossess the assets in lieu of rental fees, well they can add it to the OR
network[*].

The new fibre is in ~19mm sub ducts in BT's ducts or strung between poles.

The straight nits are easy, but the junctions at road junctions often require dig up. OTOH not as chaotic as the first generation back in the 90's (full dig up).

Depending on what BT's contract is like they may be able to repossess for non payment of rent or be the buyer in the fire sale by the insolvency practioners.

Post by Theo
So, once the physical fibre is in the ground, some financier may lose their
shirt but I think chances are good it'll stay working.
Theo
[*] some of them use dedicated fibres rather than OR's PON fibre-sharing,
but OR could work out how to integrate that

[Jason H]

Post by Jason H
I've long held that Hell would freeze over before FTTP came to our
little bit of old Trafford.  Today, a bit of paper pops through the
letterbox from Grain, telling us they are digging up the street to
provide fibre broadband service.  Two hours later, the only way to leave
the house is out back...
Now, I'm with BT.  Does this mean a full fibre upgrade (currency FTTC)
is on the cards, or are Grain a completely separate thing that does not
partner with BT/OpenReach in any way?

Thanks for some of the quite enlightening replies to this one. Now, the
street has been dug up and the cabling (or at least the pipe that the
cabling will go along) has been laid. We've had a flyer through the
letterbox explaining the pricing. It looks good. Had I not just
teleported myself back to the 90s, I'd put a picture here 8-).

So, 9.99 for the first six months; 19.99 for the "remaining" nine
months. So, a fairly short contract. I was a little bit tempted to try
it as a backup to BT but backed off from that since Openreach now says
they plan FTTP for the area. Besides, in the land of 4K, 80 down is a
certain point of sufficiency.

[Woody]

Post by Jason H
I've long held that Hell would freeze over before FTTP came to our
little bit of old Trafford.  Today, a bit of paper pops through the
letterbox from Grain, telling us they are digging up the street to
provide fibre broadband service.  Two hours later, the only way to
leave the house is out back...
Now, I'm with BT.  Does this mean a full fibre upgrade (currency FTTC)
is on the cards, or are Grain a completely separate thing that does
not partner with BT/OpenReach in any way?

Thanks for some of the quite enlightening replies to this one.  Now, the
street has been dug up and the cabling (or at least the pipe that the
cabling will go along) has been laid.  We've had a flyer through the
letterbox explaining the pricing.  It looks good.  Had I not just
teleported myself back to the 90s, I'd put a picture here 8-).
So, 9.99 for the first six months; 19.99 for the "remaining" nine
months.  So, a fairly short contract.  I was a little bit tempted to try
it as a backup to BT but backed off from that since Openreach now says
they plan FTTP for the area.  Besides, in the land of 4K, 80 down is a
certain point of sufficiency.

That doesn't add up - a 15 month contract? They usually come in 12, 18,
or 24 month blocks.
What speed are you getting for that, up and down? At that price I would
guess it is not full fibre speeds (such as 150Mb both ways) and will be
contended, so will you get any benefit from it?
Also do remember that these companies are only providing a broadband
service, most of them are NOT providing mail so unless you are already
using Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo or the like you will have to make other
arrangements for mail handling - probably at a cost.

[Phil]

Good question.  Download speeds of 100, 300, 500 and 900MB are on offer.
 Upload speeds are, strangely, not mentioned. I guess that means upload
is going to be pretty rubbish.

Looking on the Grain website it seems all their packages are symmetric.

[Jason H]

Post by Phil

Good question.  Download speeds of 100, 300, 500 and 900MB are on
offer.   Upload speeds are, strangely, not mentioned. I guess that
means upload is going to be pretty rubbish.

Looking on the Grain website it seems all their packages are symmetric.

Now that's going to be tempting when I get towards the end of my
contract with BT. Sufficient as existing FTTC is, it may struggle with
a 4k video call - one of the reasons I bought a HD webcam. Also,
occasionally uploading big things is part of the job. 100 down/up would
be perfect for me.

[Phil]

Post by Jason H
Now that's going to be tempting when I get towards the end of my
contract with BT.  Sufficient as existing FTTC is, it may struggle with
a 4k video call - one of the reasons I bought a HD webcam.  Also,
occasionally uploading big things is part of the job.  100 down/up would
be perfect for me.

The only things that put me off about them are you don't get your own
public IPv4 address. It's shared with other customers (CGNAT) and they
don't offer IPv6. Also they won't let you use your own router.

The packages/pricing are very tempting though.

[Graham J]

Post by Phil

Post by Jason H
Now that's going to be tempting when I get towards the end of my
contract with BT.  Sufficient as existing FTTC is, it may struggle
with a 4k video call - one of the reasons I bought a HD webcam.  Also,
occasionally uploading big things is part of the job.  100 down/up
would be perfect for me.

The only things that put me off about them are you don't get your own
public IPv4 address. It's shared with other customers (CGNAT) and they
don't offer IPv6. Also they won't let you use your own router.
The packages/pricing are very tempting though.

I've known CGNAT IP addresses get blacklisted by email hosting companies
because one user has sent spam - so you might be stuck with a free email
facility such as gmail.

[Phil]

Post by Graham J

Post by Phil

Post by Jason H
Now that's going to be tempting when I get towards the end of my
contract with BT.  Sufficient as existing FTTC is, it may struggle
with a 4k video call - one of the reasons I bought a HD webcam.
Also, occasionally uploading big things is part of the job.  100
down/up would be perfect for me.

The only things that put me off about them are you don't get your own
public IPv4 address. It's shared with other customers (CGNAT) and they
don't offer IPv6. Also they won't let you use your own router.
The packages/pricing are very tempting though.

I've known CGNAT IP addresses get blacklisted by email hosting companies
because one user has sent spam - so you might be stuck with a free email
facility such as gmail.

Yes, that would worry me. Also getting IP blacklisted from a website,
discussion forum etc.

[Jason H]

Post by Jason H
I've long held that Hell would freeze over before FTTP came to our
little bit of old Trafford.  Today, a bit of paper pops through the
letterbox from Grain, telling us they are digging up the street to
provide fibre broadband service.  Two hours later, the only way to leave
the house is out back...
Now, I'm with BT.  Does this mean a full fibre upgrade (currency FTTC)
is on the cards, or are Grain a completely separate thing that does not
partner with BT/OpenReach in any way?

Over a year on and Grain made me an offer I couldn't refuse. £1 per
month until my BT contract ends in November. Last months BT bill was
£145... I had it installed yesterday and other than a snafu with them
sending me the wrong WiFi password, it's mostly positive so far.

The only disappointment so far is the router configuration. It's an all
in one fiber modem and WiFi router. I guess I can get that addressed
later. A static IP address is £5 per month, as is a very basic landline
telephone package (the modem/router comes with two POTS ports).

Speaking of the fixed IP address, which I may well need later in the
year, no trace of any instruction comes with the router in terms of
management. Grain say their tech support will provide this on request.

[Graham J]

Jason H wrote:

[snip]

Over a year on and Grain made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  £1 per
month until my BT contract ends in November.  Last months BT bill was
£145... I had it installed yesterday and other than a snafu with them
sending me the wrong WiFi password, it's mostly positive so far.
The only disappointment so far is the router configuration.  It's an all
in one fiber modem and WiFi router.  I guess I can get that addressed
later.  A static IP address is £5 per month, as is a very basic landline
telephone package (the modem/router comes with two POTS ports).
Speaking of the fixed IP address, which I may well need later in the
year, no trace of any instruction comes with the router in terms of
management.  Grain say their tech support will provide this on request.

This type of router is common for many FTTP providers as well as
satellite providers. Probably combined with CGNAT and no chance of IPV6
so useless for a small business needing services such as VPN. The
shared public IP resulting from CGNAT will probably by abused by one of
the hundreds or thousands of other users who share it, so will get
blacklisted; so no self-respecting email provider will allow it through
their firewall.

You can solve the telephone issue by signing up with a VoIP provider -
it gives you independence from the ISP and probably costs a lot less.

[Woody]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Over a year on and Grain made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  £1 per
month until my BT contract ends in November.  Last months BT bill was
£145... I had it installed yesterday and other than a snafu with them
sending me the wrong WiFi password, it's mostly positive so far.
The only disappointment so far is the router configuration.  It's an
all in one fiber modem and WiFi router.  I guess I can get that
addressed later.  A static IP address is £5 per month, as is a very
basic landline telephone package (the modem/router comes with two POTS
ports).
Speaking of the fixed IP address, which I may well need later in the
year, no trace of any instruction comes with the router in terms of
management.  Grain say their tech support will provide this on request.

This type of router is common for many FTTP providers as well as
satellite providers.  Probably combined with CGNAT and no chance of IPV6
so useless for a small business needing services such as VPN.  The
shared public IP resulting from CGNAT will probably by abused by one of
the hundreds or thousands of other users who share it, so will get
blacklisted; so no self-respecting email provider will allow it through
their firewall.
You can solve the telephone issue by signing up with a VoIP provider -
it gives you independence from the ISP and probably costs a lot less.

Do Grain provide an e-mail service - like most of the other FTTP
providers don't either?

[Jason H]

Post by Woody

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Over a year on and Grain made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  £1 per
month until my BT contract ends in November.  Last months BT bill was
£145... I had it installed yesterday and other than a snafu with them
sending me the wrong WiFi password, it's mostly positive so far.
The only disappointment so far is the router configuration.  It's an
all in one fiber modem and WiFi router.  I guess I can get that
addressed later.  A static IP address is £5 per month, as is a very
basic landline telephone package (the modem/router comes with two
POTS ports).
Speaking of the fixed IP address, which I may well need later in the
year, no trace of any instruction comes with the router in terms of
management.  Grain say their tech support will provide this on request.

This type of router is common for many FTTP providers as well as
satellite providers.  Probably combined with CGNAT and no chance of
IPV6 so useless for a small business needing services such as VPN.
The shared public IP resulting from CGNAT will probably by abused by
one of the hundreds or thousands of other users who share it, so will
get blacklisted; so no self-respecting email provider will allow it
through their firewall.
You can solve the telephone issue by signing up with a VoIP provider -
it gives you independence from the ISP and probably costs a lot less.

Do Grain provide an e-mail service - like most of the other FTTP
providers don't either?

They do not. No issues with email so far, but since I want to run a web
server and set up VPN to the home, I will be paying Grain for a fixed IP
address at some point in the near future.

[Jason H]

Post by Graham J
[snip]

Over a year on and Grain made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  £1 per
month until my BT contract ends in November.  Last months BT bill was
£145... I had it installed yesterday and other than a snafu with them
sending me the wrong WiFi password, it's mostly positive so far.
The only disappointment so far is the router configuration.  It's an
all in one fiber modem and WiFi router.  I guess I can get that
addressed later.  A static IP address is £5 per month, as is a very
basic landline telephone package (the modem/router comes with two POTS
ports).
Speaking of the fixed IP address, which I may well need later in the
year, no trace of any instruction comes with the router in terms of
management.  Grain say their tech support will provide this on request.

This type of router is common for many FTTP providers as well as
satellite providers.  Probably combined with CGNAT and no chance of IPV6
so useless for a small business needing services such as VPN.  The
shared public IP resulting from CGNAT will probably by abused by one of
the hundreds or thousands of other users who share it, so will get
blacklisted; so no self-respecting email provider will allow it through
their firewall.
You can solve the telephone issue by signing up with a VoIP provider -
it gives you independence from the ISP and probably costs a lot less.

Thanks. I was just going to go with the ISP for phone but a quick
Google reveals a lot to choose from.

[Peter Johnson]

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 10:54:24 +0100, Jason H

Post by Jason H
Over a year on and Grain made me an offer I couldn't refuse. £1 per
month until my BT contract ends in November. Last months BT bill was
£145... I had it installed yesterday and other than a snafu with them
sending me the wrong WiFi password, it's mostly positive so far.
The only disappointment so far is the router configuration. It's an all
in one fiber modem and WiFi router. I guess I can get that addressed
later. A static IP address is £5 per month, as is a very basic landline
telephone package (the modem/router comes with two POTS ports).

Fibre doesn't need a modem. Presumably you have an ONT, the little
black box screwed to the wall that terminates the fibre and has an
ethernet port to connect the router to?
The router should be configurable, though, to a greater or lesser
extent.

[Jason H]

Post by Peter Johnson
On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 10:54:24 +0100, Jason H

Post by Jason H
Over a year on and Grain made me an offer I couldn't refuse. £1 per
month until my BT contract ends in November. Last months BT bill was
£145... I had it installed yesterday and other than a snafu with them
sending me the wrong WiFi password, it's mostly positive so far.
The only disappointment so far is the router configuration. It's an all
in one fiber modem and WiFi router. I guess I can get that addressed
later. A static IP address is £5 per month, as is a very basic landline
telephone package (the modem/router comes with two POTS ports).

Fibre doesn't need a modem. Presumably you have an ONT, the little
black box screwed to the wall that terminates the fibre and has an
ethernet port to connect the router to?
The router should be configurable, though, to a greater or lesser
extent.

That's probably a correct description of what I have. I believe this is
the device in question:

https://www.cooolbox.bg/files/Icotera-i6850_User-Guide_1.16.0-EN.pdf

[Graham J]

That's probably a correct description of what I have.  I believe this is
https://www.cooolbox.bg/files/Icotera-i6850_User-Guide_1.16.0-EN.pdf

So it doesn't need an ONT. The fibre plugs into it directly.

In principle it will be configurable, but the ISP is unlikely to give
you access. Let us know if I'm wrong.

[Spike]

Post by Jason H

Post by Peter Johnson
On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 10:54:24 +0100, Jason H

Post by Jason H
Over a year on and Grain made me an offer I couldn't refuse. £1 per
month until my BT contract ends in November. Last months BT bill was
£145... I had it installed yesterday and other than a snafu with them
sending me the wrong WiFi password, it's mostly positive so far.
The only disappointment so far is the router configuration. It's an all
in one fiber modem and WiFi router. I guess I can get that addressed
later. A static IP address is £5 per month, as is a very basic landline
telephone package (the modem/router comes with two POTS ports).

Fibre doesn't need a modem. Presumably you have an ONT, the little
black box screwed to the wall that terminates the fibre and has an
ethernet port to connect the router to?
The router should be configurable, though, to a greater or lesser
extent.

That's probably a correct description of what I have. I believe this is
https://www.cooolbox.bg/files/Icotera-i6850_User-Guide_1.16.0-EN.pdf

Why does the User Guide, in the WiFi description on p6, use the word
забележка?

It seems to mean ‘note’, quite appropriate, but appears to be something
difficult to overlook in the proof-reading stage.

[Theo]

Post by Spike

Post by Jason H
https://www.cooolbox.bg/files/Icotera-i6850_User-Guide_1.16.0-EN.pdf

Why does the User Guide, in the WiFi description on p6, use the word
забележка?
It seems to mean ‘note’, quite appropriate, but appears to be something
difficult to overlook in the proof-reading stage.

Cooolbox appears to be a Bulgarian ISP. The PDF appears to have been
generated from Word, maybe the ISP recieved it from the manufacturer as a
Word doc, added their own end pages, and converted it to PDF. Perhaps using
the Bulgarian version of Word put in some Bulgarian along the way? eg if
you had a style that started with 'Note: ...' maybe it uses the text from
your local language?

Anyway, I searched the doc for anything relating to modem or bridging mode
and didn't find anything, so it seems you are stuck with their router.

Theo

[Graham J]

Peter Johnson wrote:

[snip]

Post by Peter Johnson
Fibre doesn't need a modem. Presumably you have an ONT, the little
black box screwed to the wall that terminates the fibre and has an
ethernet port to connect the router to?
The router should be configurable, though, to a greater or lesser
extent.

No he doesn't. He has a complete router and modem with fibre input, all
in one box. Common for many FTTP providers.

[Jason H]

Post by Jason H
I've long held that Hell would freeze over before FTTP came to our
little bit of old Trafford.  Today, a bit of paper pops through the
letterbox from Grain, telling us they are digging up the street to
provide fibre broadband service.  Two hours later, the only way to
leave the house is out back...
Now, I'm with BT.  Does this mean a full fibre upgrade (currency FTTC)
is on the cards, or are Grain a completely separate thing that does
not partner with BT/OpenReach in any way?

Over a year on and Grain made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  £1 per
month until my BT contract ends in November.  Last months BT bill was
£145... I had it installed yesterday and other than a snafu with them
sending me the wrong WiFi password, it's mostly positive so far.
The only disappointment so far is the router configuration.  It's an all
in one fiber modem and WiFi router.  I guess I can get that addressed
later.  A static IP address is £5 per month, as is a very basic landline
telephone package (the modem/router comes with two POTS ports).
Speaking of the fixed IP address, which I may well need later in the
year, no trace of any instruction comes with the router in terms of
management.  Grain say their tech support will provide this on request.

So, after a week with Grain, a follow-up:

Fixed IP addresses are dependent on availability, which is
understandable given they are IPv4. I decided to move early on that
though it will be a couple of months before I have bandwidth to start
playing* with this. Like the other alt-nets, IPv6 is work in progress.
I expect this will be a game changer.

Router admin is not provided by default. I asked for it and they sent me
a username and password within twenty minutes of me emailing them.

Once you have access to the router admin, port forwarding privileges
aren't provided by default (at least on the Icotera router). Likewise,
this was granted to me within twenty minutes of requesting it by email.

If you want to use your own router, they say can simply put the box on
the wall into bridging mode for you.

So, I don't think anything too controversial from the perspective of the
typical member of this group. Most of their customers just want to
stream, do online gaming, surf the internet and work from home, so
support don't seem to be too busy and answer technical questions quickly.

The only complaint (and a common one among the providers, I'm told) is
that it is clearly installation on the cheap. There's a bit of ducting
on the street facing side of the garden wall and that's about it. I
doubt the trench in the garden is particularly deep. I'm not too
concerned about that - anything on the other side our front facing wall
is an SEP and I will expect it fixing when things go wrong.

* An early project is going to be setting up a Home Assistant Server I
can VPN into from the outside. My current smart lights and sockets are
not so smart if they lose there connection to a server in China...